Tips & Tricks for the KPA (wiKPA) - For those who want to get to know their KPA far above what's in the manuals :)

    Quote from lightbox


    Interestingly I already suggested just that, when I first wrote about the chance to setup a WIki for the community. Not only suggeted it, I even put it in number 1 of the small list in my post. But as long as Gianfranco isn't part of that project and hasn't agreed on putting a Donate button there .. well. ;) But in my opinion, this situation should be VERY easy to change, no?

    My apologies, I've overlooked that! ;( So, all we can do now, is wait and see whats going to happen! Hope it will be solved in a couple of days.

    Hi Gianfranco,

    thanks a lot for your great post! I really appreciate to read your very personal view of what happened and your current situation. I completely understand what you're saying and the most important answer from my side is: I didn't want to harm you and your plans at all! I simply didn't know. Sorry again for the trouble I obviously caused!

    This could be a complete answer from my side, but I think it's a good idea to go into some more detail from my side as well. Don't know yet but it could become a pretty long post as well. :)

    1. Why has Gianfranco done this WiKPA PDF?
    That's a question I think many have asked themselves already. Maybe we should have asked Gianfranco instead of trying to have our own idea of why he's doing it in the first place. :) Anyway, my personal thought was, that you're a very nice and helpful guy who really loves to go the extra mile for a great community. I'm sure this thought wasn't wrong! I didn't understand at all why Kemper haven't given you a free unit so far, be it a gift or a temporary test unit as long as you can't afford one. Your work has been worth it and it would have been worth some active cooperation to bring your initial work to the next level.
    All this hasn't happened but you still kept maintaining this document. So from my point of view it was clear that you don't have any commercial plans. And here I have been wrong, obviously. At least that's what your post suggests.


    2. The Wiki idea and why have I finally started it?
    I'm aware of Kemper thinking about a Wiki or some similar web project in the past, but it didn't materialize. There must have been reasons, most likely the workload with other things was and still is just overwhelming for this small company. Also I felt like it might not be the best for both sides if Kemper setup a Wiki on their own. As soon as a company starts to run an open community platform there can appear lots of legal and organizational issues.
    For me it's not a problem at all to setup a Wiki on one of my servers. I've done this a few times before and I have 11 years of experience running small, medium and very large web communities (up to 180.000 members) on different flavors of platforms. Some of them have been and still are commercial and some are non-commercial. When I joined the Kemper Profiler community I really liked the general willingness to help others, to share knowledge and even your own work. Some share rigs, some share music, some share time and help, some even share all of it. Wow, it's great to see this is still possible and I enjoy it, although I 100% respect commercial projects as well. I've happily spent quite some money on TAF and Soundside. They're doing a great job and it's a great value for money.
    I'm on the lucky side of life, I know. I don't have to sell products or commercially exploit a new web project. That makes it very easy for me to quickly setup this Wiki for example. I don't have to plan much in advance, I can just start and do it. And that's pretty much why I did it.


    3. The wiKPA name misery
    Now that's something, phew. I feel guilty somehow, yes I do. No stupid excuses, just honest explanation, promised.
    When I first saw the name WiKPA I thought: WOW, that's great! Let me see. And I was kind of surprised to find a PDF file instead of a Wiki. I wasn't exactly disappointed but I was a bit "hm?". Anyway, it was just a name and the PDF and its content is certainly a great, great effort and worth a million WOWs because it must have been a hell of work.
    My stupid little brain nevertheless whispered to me all the time: "Man, you really should help the community to push the WiKPA to the next level. Don't be so lazy, dude!" So I thought I could just help to ... sorry for my english here ... straighten out the name and its obvious meaning.


    I thought: "WiKPA suggests a Wiki, let's make it a Wiki. I can make it happen, Gianfranco probably doesn't own a web server, maybe he doesn't even have much experience in such things. And there's no indication of someone else doing it any time soon. And how could I do any harm with it? He's clearly not interested in a commercial effort, so he must love to see this happen."
    Wow, I was wrong about that. He obviously had plans and he may have tried to get some limited income from his work. But how could I have known? :(


    4. What now?
    Ok, that's the situation right now and there's probably many potential ways to clean the mess.
    Gianfranco planned to generate some income, which is his perfect right to do. On the other hand, I don't want to be involved in yet another commercial project, even voluntarily. That's just my personal decision, nothing bad about that I think.


    So let's see what we have:

    • I could try to find another short and catchy domain name for the non-commercial Wiki project and offer Gianfranco to take the wiKPA.org domain name. Not a big problem to do, but I took .org which shouldn't be used for commercial projects anyway.
    • I could try to find another short and catchy domain name for the Wiki project just to avoid potentially using the same name like Gianfranco. It's his decision if he wants to build a project with a name that clearly suggests a Wiki with no Wiki being inside. Or if he wants to build his own MediaWiki platform and try to make it a commercial Wiki. I really don't know and all I can do is offer him to step back from using the name if he wants me to.
    • We could join forces and just agree on using a non-commercial Wiki as it's the best platform for collaborational community work and content by far. Problem here is that Gianfranco would have to scrap his comprehensible plans to generate a little income.
    • I could just stop the Wiki project I setup, save and provide the current content if asked for and we just wait and see what Gianfranco comes up with.
    • ... there might be more but I think I need some help to figure additional choices.


    Gianfranco's situation is very different to mine, obviously, and it makes me really sad. He deserves some success! But let's be honest for a moment, please. The Kemper community is very small and no matter what kind of community project you start, it will only get a small percentage of the visitors we see in the mothership's forum. I'm not sure if that would be enough to generate measurable income as long as there's no plans to sell amazing content or products. And I don't know what the majority of users here think about supporting a commercially run project, yes I simply don't know.


    Long post and I don't know what to do now. I'm convinced of the non-commercial Wiki approach but if the general feel is like: "Hey Martin, stop that shit and let Gianfranco do his thing" ... well, I don't loose anything. It's been meant for the community from the very beginning, so the community should be allowed to decide or at least be part of the decision, I guess. ;)


    Cheers,
    Martin

    Hi Martin,


    thanks for your response :)
    .

    Quote from lightbox

    1. Why has Gianfranco done this WiKPA PDF?
    That's a question I think many have asked themselves already. Maybe we should have asked Gianfranco instead of trying to have our own idea of why he's doing it in the first place. :) Anyway, my personal thought was, that you're a very nice and helpful guy who really loves to go the extra mile for a great community. I'm sure this thought wasn't wrong! I didn't understand at all why Kemper haven't given you a free unit so far, be it a gift or a temporary test unit as long as you can't afford one. Your work has been worth it and it would have been worth some active cooperation to bring your initial work to the next level.
    All this hasn't happened but you still kept maintaining this document. So from my point of view it was clear that you don't have any commercial plans. And here I have been wrong, obviously. At least that's what your post suggests.

    .
    Well, I've gone into much detail about the whole story of how the thing started. There's nothing more to be said, I think...


    .

    Quote from lightbox

    3. The wiKPA name misery
    Now that's something, phew. I feel guilty somehow, yes I do. No stupid excuses, just honest explanation, promised.
    When I first saw the name WiKPA I thought: WOW, that's great! Let me see. And I was kind of surprised to find a PDF file instead of a Wiki. I wasn't exactly disappointed but I was a bit "hm?". Anyway, it was just a name and the PDF and its content is certainly a great, great effort and worth a million WOWs because it must have been a hell of work.
    My stupid little brain nevertheless whispered to me all the time: "Man, you really should help the community to push the WiKPA to the next level. Don't be so lazy, dude!" So I thought I could just help to ... sorry for my english here ... straighten out the name and its obvious meaning.

    .
    Mhh... may I ask how old you are?
    I see your enthusiasm, and I definitely realize you did not try to take profit on me or my work. But let me just say that common sense (and a bit of courtesy, if I can) would have suggested to at least contact me privately and informally ask what I thought about your idea :)


    .

    Quote from lightbox

    So let's see what we have:
    I could try to find another short and catchy domain name for the non-commercial Wiki project and offer Gianfranco to take the wiKPA.org domain name. Not a big problem to do, but I took .org which shouldn't be used for commercial projects anyway.I could try to find another short and catchy domain name for the Wiki project just to avoid potentially using the same name like Gianfranco. It's his decision if he wants to build a project with a name that clearly suggests a Wiki with no Wiki being inside. Or if he wants to build his own MediaWiki platform and try to make it a commercial Wiki. I really don't know and all I can do is offer him to step back from using the name if he wants me to.We could join forces and just agree on using a non-commercial Wiki as it's the best platform for collaborational community work and content by far. Problem here is that Gianfranco would have to scrap his comprehensible plans to generate a little income.I could just stop the Wiki project I setup, save and provide the current content if asked for and we just wait and see what Gianfranco comes up with.... there might be more but I think I need some help to figure additional choices.

    I appreciate your willingness :)


    Despite your statements, I've the impression you're nevertheless trying to turn the situation into a "free Vs. commercial".
    To better clarify, my project was meant in order to offer the international KPA community a free access to the whole KPA-related information, and at the same time to get some resources to be able to administrate the site.
    The small income would be generated by advertisers, all the ads would strictly be KPA-related. It was thought out as a way to gather the KPA world (users, sellers, profilers, recording studios, musicians...) on a page.


    But I'm aware that there're some users that consider selling goods as a kind of sin, specially if they are immaterial (I remember all the mess and the scandal when Armin started selling profiles. Strange to say, nothing on that line happened when TAF hit the market. Mysteries of marketing? LOL). I really wouldn't want to embark in a project which would be boycotted by some on principle.
    .

    Quote from lightbox

    But let's be honest for a moment, please. The Kemper community is very small and no matter what kind of community project you start, it will only get a small percentage of the visitors we see in the mothership's forum. I'm not sure if that would be enough to generate measurable income as long as there's no plans to sell amazing content or products. And I don't know what the majority of users here think about supporting a commercially run project, yes I simply don't know.

    The wiKPA has been downloaded thousands of times already. Why should only a small percentage of this forum's visitors go on using it?
    Anyway, this business planning has nothing to do with the subject of this discussion.


    The peculiarity of a portal is to collect and classify information, to make all the resources available in relation to a certain interest, good, activity. Facebook did not sell anything material but has been used quite a bit, lately...
    The comparison is just a joke, of course. But I believe that finding all the KPA-related infos, services and goods in one place would be amazing for a person interested in the Profiler. It's always the lack of imagination that kills new initiatives.
    .

    Quote

    I don't know what the majority of users here think about supporting a commercially run project, yes I simply don't know.

    .
    .
    In cauda venenum?
    Again the fundamentalist emerging! You had just written you have nothing against commercial projects... LOL
    But let me ask you, what do you exactly think users should be obliged to do in order to "support a commercially run project"?
    If I owned a Profiler I'd be happy to see all the third-part products and services advertised on a single site: new FRFR, new MIDi peadlboards, new stands... how can this be wrong?
    I feel something morbid in this "you work has to be for free otherwise it's not shareable\moral". Please correct me if I'm wrong.


    Anyway, my original project is not mandatory, of course. Other ways could be found in order to supply the best possible services to the community and live all happy together :)


    PS, NB: It goes by itself that, if the majority of forumites here thinks that such a vision is unbecoming, I'd miss any pleasure or momentum in pursuing it.

    Edited 2 times, last by viabcroce: Formatting PS! ().

    This post is directed at the community


    Maybe a litte back history on why a Kemper wiki took so long to happen.
    As early as march 2012 people in the community ask about starting a wiki many
    made offers to do it but they thought at the time it would be great to consult
    with Kemper on it first. Its was then reported that...


    Quote

    "Wiki will be established in a short while ( and hosted by Kemper I think) This was okayed today by CK "


    Well that was fourteen months ago.


    People have patiently been waiting and holding off starting a wiki to see if kemper would start the WIKI.


    All the information contributed and collected from the community belong's to this community.


    Wiki would be the best way to continue to contributed and collected info from this community.

    Let me try a short answer this time. :)


    1. I'm 48. Does this qualify me for a free black forest cake? :D


    2. I think I still didn't perfectly understand, what you try to create. I thought it's something where other community members are encourged to share knowledge and contribute? But now it seems to be an effort of yours to provide something for the users, which would be a completely different thing than the Wiki initiative I started. Still difficult to know without knowing your plans, obviously. Maybe you should just finish it, if it's already almost ready to launch. Then everyone can see and judge on his own?
    Currently I can't see a reason to stop our online Wiki in favour of your personal plans. If you like to claim the name wiKPA for your own project, tell me clearly and I'll switch to another domain name. No problem at all, really, if it helps you.


    3. Regarding the term "commercial". I don't know about Italy or other countries, but here in Germany it's like this: If you generate income/revenue from a project then this is considered commercial. It might just be a small, paid online advertising banner or it might be a massive shopping system and profit generation machine. It doesn't matter. Revenue is revenue and this has to be declared "commercial".


    4. Fundamentalism:
    I think I've pointed out clearly, that I ALWAYS pay happily for a product or service if I can see its value for me. I'm exactly the opposite of this horrible attitude of "everything HAS to be free". I totally respect someones decision to offer paid services or paid products ... I've earned a lot of money this way so how could I be against it? But I reserve the right to offer something for free and to mean free when I say free and to mean non-commercial when I say non-commercial. What I don't like so much is these unclear flavors in between. It's not so hard to just say: "I need to earn some money" That's perfectly ok, everybody has to earn money in some way.


    Maybe I still miss some points or still don't understand perfectly. But I guarantee that it's not by purpose and I'm not trying to turn anything in any misleading way.


    Cheers,
    Martin

    Quote from lightbox

    I'm 48. Does this qualify me for a free black forest cake? :D

    LOL
    Sorry, I'm quite familiar with the Black Forest but I miss the joke here :D

    Quote from lightbox

    I think I still didn't perfectly understand, what you try to create. I thought it's something where other community members are encourged to share knowledge and contribute? But now it seems to be an effort of yours to provide something for the users, which would be a completely different thing than the Wiki initiative I started. Still difficult to know without knowing your plans, obviously. Maybe you should just finish it, if it's already almost ready to launch. Then everyone can see and judge on his own?
    Currently I can't see a reason to stop our online Wiki in favour of your personal plans. If you like to claim the name wiKPA for your own project, tell me clearly and I'll switch to another domain name. No problem at all, really, if it helps you.

    Well, I guess the whole point is that there's probably no need (and no room) for two informational sites about the KPA. I think the best option is to keep just one running.
    My original project was a mixture of both the aspects you described. And no, I don't have the resources for trying and go online, and then in case abandon the whole thing... would not be practical.


    Quote

    Currently I can't see a reason to stop our online
    Wiki in favour of your personal plans. If you like to claim the name
    wiKPA for your own project, tell me clearly and I'll switch to another
    domain name. No problem at all, really, if it helps you.

    .
    No, I don't believe it's useful ATM. I'll contact you personally to agree on details. What I really want is something which works for the community.


    Quote from lightbox

    3. Regarding the term "commercial". I don't know about Italy or other countries, but here in Germany it's like this: If you generate income/revenue from a project then this is considered commercial. It might just be a small, paid online advertising banner or it might be a massive shopping system and profit generation machine. It doesn't matter. Revenue is revenue and this has to be declared "commercial".

    .
    A distinction has to be made because there are two kinds of commercial sites: the ones where you have to pay to access services and facilities, and the ones where some income is generated by mechanisms that leave the user experience free. I wanted do underline that I had thought of nothing of the first kind.
    The discussion has become relevant just for its own sake at this stage, but
    as I wrote, the point I'm missing is why you believe that a user should do something special for "supporting" a commercial site. In case by this you mean "to visit" it, why a person should be hesitant in visiting it? Isn't the Kemper site a commercial one? Is there anyone who feels troubled in downloading the new FWs from there?


    Quote

    What I
    don't like so much is these unclear flavors in between. It's not so hard
    to just say: "I need to earn some money" That's perfectly ok, everybody
    has to earn money in some way.

    Here I miss you again. I'm aware English is not my first language and sometimes my English translates weirdly, but I've re-read my previous posts and I never found I was tying to hide something or to be strategically unclear. What I've written here above should have removed any further ambiguity,if any.


    Quote from lightbox

    Maybe I still miss some points or still don't understand perfectly. But I guarantee that it's not by purpose and I'm not trying to turn anything in any misleading way.

    I know, Martin. And please rest assured there's as well no aggressiveness or anger from my part :)
    I consider this just a moment of healthy confrontation and clarification.


    Let's talk in private for the details!

    Ok gang, I think I'm allowed to present good news.
    Gianfranco and me have rent one boat so we can nicely sit together in one boat.
    Now we're just hopelessly at odds about the question who sits left and who sits right while rowing up the Wiki stream. Help needed. :D *justkidding*


    I'm sure Gianfranco will chime in shortly as well. :)


    Cheers,
    Martin

    Quote from lightbox

    Ok gang, I think I'm allowed to present good news.
    Gianfranco and me have rent one boat so we can nicely sit together in one boat.
    Now we're just hopelessly at odds about the question who sits left and who sits right while rowing up the Wiki stream. Help needed. :D *justkidding*


    I'm sure Gianfranco will chime in shortly as well. :)


    Cheers,
    Martin

    Way cool :)



    This is actually not wat has happened at that time.
    There have been talks about a Wiki with a group of users, and we assured that we are going to support and host (if necessary) a Wiki.
    Unfortunately the conversation starved and wasn't really brought to the forum, probably due to a missing critical mass.
    Since it's a Wiki, we have to rely on the community, by definition.


    We really appreciate the present action, as well as we appreciated Gianfrancos recent work.
    We are in contact with him and Lightbox, and hope this will become a pleasant situation for all participants.


    About the Wikpa name:
    We are constantly going to replace the abbreviation KPA by the nape "Profiler" in the future, i suggest to have a Wiki name with "Profiler" (or Kemper) included. That could also solve the name discussion.


    CK

    Quote from ckemper

    [quote='troynova','index.php?page=Thread&postID=94546#post94546']
    About the Wikpa name:
    We are constantly going to replace the abbreviation KPA by the nape "Profiler" in the future, i suggest to have a Wiki name with "Profiler" (or Kemper) included. That could also solve the name discussion.


    CK


    But Mr CK, WiKPA sounds so cool! Especially pronounced Wick-P-A, a la Wikipedia. It's well understood here that KPA is the Kemper Profiling Amplifier, the WiKPA has a nice ring to it!


    Of course, everything hinges on viabcroce saying things are ok by him. We still haven't heard back. While I think labrat had the right intention in setting up a wiki, it wasn't a good idea to take the name without consulting the originator.


    Though to be honest, I always thought the name WiKPA was just community property, since many of the quotes therein are those of community members.

    I wasn't labrat, it was me. ;)
    The name problem (my mistake) is solved ... but you're welcome to wait for Gianfranco to reconfirm.
    The Wiki can already be filled with content, independent from the domain name. The Wiki will remain and the worst thing that could happen is a change of domain name. But as I mentioned above, we're fine now. :)


    Cheers,
    Martin

    Quote from lightbox

    I wasn't labrat, it was me. ;)
    The name problem (my mistake) is solved ... but you're welcome to wait for Gianfranco to reconfirm.
    The Wiki can already be filled with content, independent from the domain name. The Wiki will remain and the worst thing that could happen is a change of domain name. But as I mentioned above, we're fine now. :)


    Cheers,
    Martin


    I like your comment. "I wasn't labrat, it was me" : :thumbup:


    Poor labrat, being accused of a crime he didn't commit.


    I think Gianfranco has been super nice and polite about this actually. I, for one, can be really overbearing and vicious if I felt someone stole something I considered my intellectual output. Sure, it would just deteriorate into name calling and all kinds of accusations. After all, there's no monopoly on having a wiki, but there is a question of who thought up WiKPA. But other than the black forest cake incident, it's been amazing at how polite this "confrontation" has been.

    Hi all,


    yes, I'm happy too :) It's official: the wiKPA contents will be migrated to the site ASAP; and I'll be contributing to wiKPA.org as I did for the wiKPA.


    Some considerations about the name: I like "wiKPA" a lot, I find it terse and meaningful :)
    wikiFiler is a good effort IMO, but a bit ambiguous ("filer" is an actual word in English and means something different). We can go on searching something which would appeal Eng. Kemper as well, but it should be as good as wiKPA at least! Just my head-copywriter opinion of course :)


    BTW, "wiki" has to be written in small letters, even at the beginning of a sentence. This is what the creator of the term stated (see wikipedia on this matter)!


    Last, I have to say (in a most friendly way) that I can't agree with nighlight's POV: the contents of the document belong to the forum (well, to the forums actually, they're taken from several places on the Net) but this can't lead to the concept that then the wiKPA logo is public as well: the logo is the result of a private and personal research and effort, and has nothing to do with the contents of the document in itself.


    Well, all's well that ends well... Don't worry, be Kemper :thumbup:

    Edited 2 times, last by viabcroce: Typos ().

    Quote from viabcroce


    Last, I have to say (in a most friendly way) that I can't agree with nighlight's POW: the contents of the document belong to the forum (well, to the forums actually, they're taken from several places on the Net) but this can't lead to the concept that then the wiKPA logo is public as well: the logo is the result of a private and personal research and effort, and has nothing to do with the contents of the document in itself.


    No, no! What I was referring to was the actual contents within the pdf document. Stuff said by people like Mr CK, etc, are the focus of the document, it appeared to me, but perhaps I didn't read too far in. In that sense, staking claim to what was said by someone else wouldn't be appropriate. ^^


    Quote from nightlight


    After all, there's no monopoly on having a wiki, but there is a question of who thought up WiKPA. But other than the black forest cake incident, it's been amazing at how polite this "confrontation" has been.


    As far as the logo, I've stated that I would be far less polite than you if I felt someone had stolen my idea. :thumbdown: wiKPA is a good name and considering all the fuss around this issue, it is clear you should have been consulted before the name was used. :whistling:


    Even if you might not have ownership in legal terms, but I would boycott something if I found it was ripped off, no matter how good the product is. That includes pirated music, books, movies, etc :thumbup:

    Quote from nightlight

    Even if you might not have ownership in legal terms, but I would boycott something if I found it was ripped off, no matter how good the product is. That includes pirated music, books, movies, etc :thumbup:


    While I already agreed that is was a mistake to take the name, I still want to clearly point put, that I would have NEVER done it to take the name for MY product, music, book, movie, etc.
    There is no such thing like a product. I setup a 100% free (free access, free editing, free non-commercial licence) Wiki for the whole community. Probably the best intentions you can imagine, although it certainly went wrong. I didn't want to do any harm to anyone. The problem is solved now and we can focus on making this Wiki a great resource for everyone.


    The fact that Gianfranco remained very polite and we could discuss and fix the problem made it possible to keep the Wiki going. If there would have been strong gusts and thunderstorms, I would have simply shut down the Wiki again and nobody would have had much benefit from that, imho.


    Cheers,
    Martin

    Quote from nightlight

    No, no! What I was referring to was the actual contents within the pdf document. Stuff said by people like Mr CK, etc, are the focus of the document, it appeared to me, but perhaps I didn't read too far in. In that sense, staking claim to what was said by someone else wouldn't be appropriate. ^^

    .
    Uh, got it! :thumbup:


    Yes, the wiKPA is made of cuts&pastes from several sources and forums, a systematic formatting and rewriting from me, and some original things I added based on my knowledge and my ideas.


    PS: For future references, I'm using the term "wiKPA" for my document and wiKPA.org for the site. I guess this might have lead to some misunderstanding in previous posts of mine :rolleyes: :D