Too much emphasis on "in the room" sound....Flame suit on!


    I use the Kemper live and here is my take on "in the room sound."


    When I played live with my half stack the stage volume of the amp was enough to hear what I was playing and to get sustain and feedback. The amp was mic'ed and more often than not, the FOH sounded like my amp. To me that is what I expect. The Kemper is no different, when I play live with it I expect the monitor and FOH to sound about the same. If it does, I am happy.

    No idea when the "1x12 to 4x12" EQ Stomp/Preset (hope I'm calling it the right thing) came out but it's in the EQ section of my selectable stomps, one of the first ones right after distortion I believe. I'd try adding all the old factory content from the Rig Pack download section on the main site. I've added everything they have that way and then just deleted the rigs I don't use. If you still can't find it try this old post from Don Petersen, pretty sure it's the same setting I have: 1x12 to 4x12 and 4x12 to 1x12 EQ settings

    With all due respect I do not believe everyone that talks about "in the room" sound is inexperienced in live performance. I have been playing live since 1982 and played many bigger gigs where I could not hear my amp out the mains, only through the amp. Here is an example of me unable to hear the mains:
    http://youtu.be/1893HX30dno


    Most of the first year I owned the Kemper I used it like a traditional amp/cab. Recently I started going direct and the sound of my patches (and the rigs from Pete, TAF, and soundside) do NOT sound good through the PA out of the box. And unfortunately, unlike a traditional amp where once you understand where to place the mic you end up with reasonably consistent tone AND the "in the room" sound, the Kemper must be adjusted for either direct or through power amp.


    When I hear people talk about "in the room" sound, I get it and recognize that the Kemper (or Axe) are not the same as a traditional amp and needs to be set up differently. The Kemper can get you there but it takes time to learn how to use it. If you think about, whether you play at home or in arenas, the same learning curve applies.

    Quote from guitarmike

    With all due respect I do not believe everyone that talks about "in the room" sound is inexperienced in live performance. I have been playing live since 1982 and played many bigger gigs where I could not hear my amp out the mains, only through the amp. Here is an example of me unable to hear the mains:
    http://youtu.be/1893HX30dno


    Most of the first year I owned the Kemper I used it like a traditional amp/cab. Recently I started going direct and the sound of my patches (and the rigs from Pete, TAF, and soundside) do NOT sound good through the PA out of the box. And unfortunately, unlike a traditional amp where once you understand where to place the mic you end up with reasonably consistent tone AND the "in the room" sound, the Kemper must be adjusted for either direct or through power amp.


    When I hear people talk about "in the room" sound, I get it and recognize that the Kemper (or Axe) are not the same as a traditional amp and needs to be set up differently. The Kemper can get you there but it takes time to learn how to use it. If you think about, whether you play at home or in arenas, the same learning curve applies.


    My personal definition of amp in a room: Off axis listening perspective including room reflections.
    I have yet to see a stage where I can get an 'amp in a room' sound like I get at home with my amp according to the definition above.
    For multiple reasons: Other instruments, especially drums, get very loud. Soundman demands to lift the amp on ear levels to keep stage volume down.
    In the end I end up with a sound that is not my amp-in-the-room sound but a monitoring compromise.
    In cases when I get my amp sound on my monitors amp in the room doesn't happen either.
    So for me, IMHO amp in the room on a stage can only happen in idealized conditions.

    My experiences are similar as Ingolf. On the stage I usually have some compromised sound/setting.
    But in the rehearsal room and of course at home is "amp-in-the-room" for me unbeatable. That is the reason why I use guitar cab(s) with Kemper Powerhead.

    Quote from Per

    Actually quite often there's a lot of in the room tone on records, distant micing produces quite a different sound to close micing, and while modern pop is all very very ultra close mic'd (and often just pod's) it's not a sound we think of for the kinds of classic tones many of us were used to growing up.


    While I do understand your angle, there's no reason why you can't create profiles using distant mics. You can even use a combination of mics if you use a small mixer with the profiler. Although it won't produce the exact amp-in-the-room feel through your monitor(s) it will at least produce the wanted effect through FOH or on your recordings.

    Quote from heldal

    While I do understand your angle, there's no reason why you can't create profiles using distant mics. You can even use a combination of mics if you use a small mixer with the profiler. Although it won't produce the exact amp-in-the-room feel through your monitor(s) it will at least produce the wanted effect through FOH or on your recordings.


    Sadly you cant do this on the Kemper. - the Kemper will truncate automatically any early reflections on its capture. so this will sound strange if you attempt this theory. (I tried) - for me its impossible to get an in the room sound without a physical cab pushing air.. no mic is going to produce that. (not direct anyway)


    I did lots of research in this area, and my latest cab pack has this exact detail, has 3 sets of room mics etc etc rear mics, amb mics to capture the room and the cab.. we spent 4 months producing it (approx) - sadly you cant load these into the kemper but would need to be control direct from a DAW IR LOADER of some kind. - but you will get the results of a studio setup, and can drag and drop any IR position you want from , direct to full on rooms etc.. - there are demos on my website under free stuff..however this will still nto provide the amp in the room effect.. it will just give you a more "depth" based sound - you will only ever get in the room if you are in the room, and playing without cab sims on. (direct to amp or cab)


    Sorry to sound like a self advertising (its not) but it was exactly what Ive been working on...so was relevant here..

    Quote from heldal


    While I do understand your angle, there's no reason why you can't create profiles using distant mics. You can even use a combination of mics if you use a small mixer with the profiler. Although it won't produce the exact amp-in-the-room feel through your monitor(s) it will at least produce the wanted effect through FOH or on your recordings.


    Sadly it won't. Have you tried this? If you did you'd know that the result is the usual close (I.e. mic on grill) sound, just with slight eq variation. This is not a distant mic'd sound, which contains the natural comb filtering of the amp in addition to the colored reflections of the sound, background noise and sympathetic noise that makes up a true in the room sound.


    The Kemper actually does record a loop of background noise during profiling, but discards it once the rig is saved. It's reverb is ok, but still sterile and digital and just far too smooth to really give you the effect of a real room's sound, but it's a nice digital effect all the same. And the only sympathetic sound plugins I know of deal with string frequencies. You can work around all of this ITB with your DAW, or by dangling a mic in the room and re-recording and careful mix tricks, but trust me that the Kemper just being an amp sim only and not profiling the rooms reverb itself cannot directly give you distant mic'd sound from a raw unsweetened profile of an amp that had a distant mic, it's just beyond the parameters of what a pure amp simulation does currently, which I think is a bit of a sad thing as one of the reasons you go to a studio is because they have a nice room to record in. :shrugs:

    Quote from Michael_dk

    So what kind of things do you typically need to adjust to get it there? (genuinely interested)


    My band played live last Saturday and we were all direct into the pa except the drummer. This is the first time we have done this at a gig. In church we us Aviom's for personal monitoring, so we are used to the band sounding different in our ears.


    It did not go well at the gig because we lost the "presence" of the 2 guitars and bass. Having them go through the PA means you lose the thump of the bass rig and the overall ambiance of the band. It sounded fine through the PA but the band felt lifeless without amps singing on stage. That is the "in the room" feeling everyone is talking about. It will take a few gigs to get used to it, it's just different.

    Why did your bass player go direct only? THAT I Can completely understand, and would never do unless I had some serious side fill:monitor action going on. I've been running a Yamaha dxr12 behind me lately at shows in FOH of mode( yes not in ground monitor mode) and it fills the backline more than any directional 4x12 could, it simply wasn't a comparison. But I still find this thread informative to see what's important to others.

    Pretty much any Kemper profile I use demonstrates it lol. We're using FOH (amp tone colored by mics) here not a bare amp, some will adjust to it some won't but for the one's that won't I suggest finding the mic you like best because that's where your sound is heading anyways:)

    Quote from ckemper

    So much talk about amp in the room, taken by a microphone.
    I have yet to hear an audio clip that demonstrates this sound.
    Anybody?


    Now I am truly, hopelessly confused.


    I thought amp in the room was the sound of an amp, in a room. And profiles sound like a miced up amp, i.e. not a mic in a room. That sound would be similar to what a crowd would hear when an amp is miced up on stage.


    Am I right? Am I wrong? Sounds good to me, but this philosophical discussion is making me feel nauseous because of the inevitable question it throws up: which is better? :pinch:

    Don't take my words seriously but about 3 months ago I traded my Laney VC30 212 to a nice ES 335 copy made by Edwards. On the night before the actual day of trade I dusted the amp and played it one last time and indeed there was this 3D sound that I'm hearing again that I was never able to hear (or feel) from KPA and also with my Tech21 TM130. I played the Tech21 since I suspect that it must be the open back cabinet that was making the sound, but the Tech21 didn't have it . Long story short I still went for the trade since KPA has a lot more magic than the Laney. I also tried playing my Blackheart 5 watter but it didn't have it also.
    Even with a good recording gear I think I don't know how to capture it because I don't understand where it was coming from.

    Quote from VESmedic1

    Why did your bass player go direct only? THAT I Can completely understand, and would never do unless I had some serious side fill:monitor action going on. I've been running a Yamaha dxr12 behind me lately at shows in FOH of mode( yes not in ground monitor mode) and it fills the backline more than any directional 4x12 could, it simply wasn't a comparison. But I still find this thread informative to see what's important to others.

    I am not saying that it is bad having everything go direct, I think it is the best way to go in a small pub. The lack of instruments in the air threw the drummer and we all noticed it felt different. Having your monitor or a cab behind you, on the side, or as a monitor will add stage volume. I do not think that is a problem if you can control your volume. I have played many gigs at lower volume levels with a 100 watt 1/2 stack, as long as you resist turning it up its ok.

    heres a clip of what i consider a great amp in a room recorded tone ....
    and the room tone helps the guitar sit well in the mix



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxA4WgIZmO8


    the highs are softer and dont hurt the ear but still clear, the lows seem to pump like a resonance from the room , those are the things i find hard to nail with the kemper , and with every other modeler ive tried , the highs allways end up too harsh or too dull . a room keeps the highs bright without sounding harsh .
    the room verb can be simulated using the onboard kemper verb


    the kemper is the greatest amp imitation i have heard and i love it , but after trying tons of free and paid for profiles i am still chasing tones like this 1 when using the kemper direct for recording..


    this sound may be obtainable with the kemper , i dont know i just havent nailed it yet ..



    and yes that clip is from the real van halen album ... but lotsa room mics!