Is There a Rig or Folder-number Limit for RM? [SOLVED]

  • Just curious. Also, I'd like to know how high we've gone thus far.


    @digitalflip mentioned that he suspected a folder limit Here.


    I have had a similar experience, but the crash-on-load behaviour wasn't consistent and was cured by repeated attempts to open the app. I have since removed some folders that I figured I wouldn't be using often, and all's hunky-dory now. The total number of Rigs appeared to be unrelated to the problem; it was simply a matter of staying below the critical folder-count.


    Interestingly, I was able to tell as soon as RM started loading whether I was above or below the count. If above it by a single folder (or perhaps only a couple - uncertain), the folder icons in RM didn't appear. If several folders or more above the limit, the disclosure triangles weren't there either.


    Functionality was unaffected. Folders could be opened by clicking on the invisible triangles; they were still there.


    Let's get to the bottom of this, eh? IMHO, we should start by examining whether or not there are folder and / or Rig-number limits, hence this thread.


    Thank you, fellow beloved Kemperites!


    PS: I really don't want to to and fro with support on this; it's not an issue for me but I can see a future where, as we all build our collections and refine them by sub-dividing them into more folders, we're gonna start running into this brick wall, if indeed it exists and is not unique to a small number of setups.


    Rig Manager FW 1.5.16 'cause I'm still on Kemper FW 3.1.4

  • For me this only happened on Mac OS X. On Windows 7 the problem was not existent. Also the log file was not very helpful because at that moment RM was not logging any longer. I send a trace stack to support explaining the problem but no solution yet. This issues was introduced with RM 1.5 IIRC, the older versions did not had this problem, the limit was about somewhere around 100 folders. What I saw from the stack trace was that RM was requesting additional resources from the OS which were not granted. I assume this issue is not based of the Kemper part of the code but in some of the underlying libraries.
    Anyways, I changed my workflow so it's not an issue for me.

  • some MacOS versions have a limit which results in the amount of folders being limited. i believe that 10.10 has a limit and it is gone in 10.11 again. but from what we saw over time the limit sometimes stays when you upgrade MacOS instead of a fresh install. rig manager itself doesn't have a limit.

  • Gee, thank you so much, guys!


    I'm on 10.9.2 Mavericks (should really be on the .4 or .5 version as .2 sux), so I'll consider skipping 10.10 even 'though I had my heart set on going to 10.10.5 and staying there for a while 'cause of all the good reports I've seen as far as stability of my DAW on that OS is concerned. Too bad. Apparently El Cap isn't too bad, but it's not as good as Yosemite 10.10.5 was with Digital Performer.


    I'd planned on avoiding a complete reinstallation 'cause my system's lean and running well, but if the folder limit really isn't there in El Cap, and if what you say about upgrading vs a clean install is true, G String, I'll bite the bullet and go the whole monkey... I mean, hog.


    You did say "sometimes" 'though, so I could try upgrading and only fresh-installing if the folder limit remains.


    Thank you so much again, guys! So glad some peeps actually know about computers. 8o

  • Nicky,


    at least for me El Capitan does not fix it. It's still the same. RM process starts, but the UI does not fire up. It's the same behaviour in Maverick, Yosemite and El Capitan. It looks like if the EventDispatcher is throwing exceptions due to missing resources. Just tested it on all versions.


    @G String, if you are interested in this I could provide you the Kemper folder from ~/Library together wit the stack trace.

  • Don't know mate, but digital flip said "the limit was about somewhere around 100 folders".


    EDIT: I see he posted while I was typing. Thanks for answering, 'Flipster.


    Nicky,


    at least for me El Capitan does not fix it. It's still the same. RM process starts, but the UI does not fire up. It's the same behaviour in Maverick, Yosemite and El Capitan. It looks like if the EventDispatcher is throwing exceptions due to missing resources. Just tested it on all versions.


    @G String, if you are interested in this I could provide you the Kemper folder from ~/Library together wit the stack trace.


    Dang. Thank you so much for the heads-up, 'Flipster; you've probably saved me a world of pain, mate! I very-much appreciate that you went to all that trouble to test it on all three OS versions too. What a champion you are!


    FWIMBW, G String, seeing as digitalflip seems to know what he's on about, I think this is an ideal opportunity to take him up on his offer and nail this sucker. I'm sure you'd love to get it out of the way once and for all as it's going to continue to raise its ugly head ever-more frequently, especially, as I said earlier, in light of the fact that users' libraries are gong to continue to grow.

  • @digitalflip
    390 folders within Local library!
    Are these project folders? I know some people like to use folders that way - esp. when they are used to do so, but sacrificing one tag and putting the folder name in it could save you a whole lot of trouble and would probably speed things up too!

  • @digitalflip
    390 folders within Local library!
    Are these project folders? I know some people like to use folders that way - esp. when they are used to do so, but sacrificing one tag and putting the folder name in it could save you a whole lot of trouble and would probably speed things up too!


    In the beginning I used separate folders for each amp. As I said above I have changed it in the meantime and reduced the amount to less than 10

  • Phew! Figured I'd count 'em seeing as others have. Bear in mind that I tallied both parent and sub-folders, and only those in the Local Library - not Performances as I've added nothing and also not the RE folder. There's also the possibility that I miscounted them, so the following data may have to be offset by a Rig or two - unlikely but possible, and I really didn't want to count 'em all again!


    I used the /Users/Your Name/Library/Application Support/Kemper Amps/RigManager/Local Library folder's repository.db folders that I've placed into storage until the Kemper Team™ solve the limit issue, at which time I'll return them to their cosy little home. Adding and removing these seemed an easier option than recreating the folders manually in RM and dragging Rigs to them.


    Here's a Jeff Beck* account of what happened:


    237 and all seemed fine.
    238 saw the folder icons in RM disappear, both for parent and sub-folders.
    239 and everything worked normally again!
    240 and the icons disappeared again.
    241 and beyond saw both the icons and disclosure triangles vanish.


    Tried the procedure again to see if the 239-folder anomaly repeated itself:


    237 fine again.
    238 and the folder icons disappeared as expected.
    239 and everything worked normally again, again!
    Reverted back to 238 and the icons disappeared again.
    Back to 239 and hunky-dory once again.
    240 and the icons disappeared again.
    241 and both the icons and disclosure triangles disappeared again.


    In conclusion, I've determined that on Mac OSX 10.9 Mavericks, these are the limits:


    237 and 239 are the limits for normal operation.
    238 and 240 cause all folder icons to vanish.
    241 or more folders cause both folder icons and disclosure triangles to disappear; the invisible triangles are still functional 'though.


    Hope this helps somebody.


    * A Blow-by-Blow account, so to speak.

  • Important update:


    The method I used to determine the limit involved tampering with the / Users / Your Name / Library / Application Support / Kemper Amps / RigManager / Local Library folder. This is expressly forbidden by Kemper. Here's what's left of my journey of discovery of this matter:


    A Monkey Method™ You Definitely Don't Want to Employ


    There's no guarantee that I haven't planted the seeds for a future RM catastrophe through my experimentation outlined in the previous post. I'll not be touching this folder again, and I implore my dear, fellow Kemperites to follow suit.


    EDIT: The very-good news is that G String has confirmed that the folder-number restriction encountered with some operating systems will be addressed in a future update. Woohoo!


    I'll edit the thread's title to reflect this.

  • Hi Robman, do you collect rigs or play guitar? :)


    I know the question is not directed at me but I was thinking about that other day and my personal opinion is that most (not all, I consider my self among most) who use amp modeling/profiling develop a bad side effect.


    The side effect is constant flip flopping between profiles due to the abundance of good profiles everywhere.


    Who in the real world uses more than two real amps to three real amps? for the most part nobody. That can be duplicated very easily in the Kemper but due to the huge variety, satisfaction for many becomes hopping around, and luckily good profiles don't get jealous or refuse to preform because you're using other profiles.


    On the other hand committing to one or two profiles might be even more satisfying, but fortunate for commercial profile sellers, as someone else here eloquently :D put it, there are too many profiles whores in the KPA forum (I have about 16K in rig manager and over 20k in my PC)