Rabea is down With the kemper being able to mimic an amp

    As always this leads to the point where the open discussion has no result. There is a difference, might it be good or bad, who cares. I do not have a battery of amps to compare. But what I can say is that I like about 2-5% of profiles I hear and these are more than enough. I have fun playing these and the band members, sound engineer and audience like them too. What do we want more?


    The possibilities outrange the tonal nuances by far in my opinion. If I would change back from KPA to valve technology my amp setup would cost me about 4000$ including 2 or 3 pedals.


    I like the idea of putting some reverse delay or octaver on for 1 intro or solo without having to spend 200$ on a pedal, search for it, reorganize my board, sell it etc. Modeling was neber a point for me, even in the first 1 or 2 years of the KPA. But since they are optimizing and developing their software on and on and with having the Remote it outranges valve technology in live situations for me.


    I appreciate the free updates. I would be not very happy having to pay for each new OS version. But I will pay for a KPA standalone floorboard which only does performance mode. Like a remote with an audio processor.

    Well, the purpose of the device is to emulate your particular amp as close as possible. That's the standard set by the company itself. Also some of us bought kemper to profile our own amps. I don't know why Rabea doesn't profile his own amp through the torpedo, but he hasn't put out a proper comparison.


    I think open discussion can have the effect of kemper trying to get the profiling that tiny bit better which would mean quite a bit to some of us using the kemper (or others not using the kemper because of differences, and we don't hear from most of these people here).


    All that said here's a DI comparison. Read description to understand what the test is about :) I first run amp signal and direct profile through same cab emulation, then it's a studio profile. That's how close the kemper can get if you well know what you are doing with profiling.


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    Cheerios

    If you pay attention to 2:56 seconds in (the single note) you will hear what I mean when I say "tube screamer on high values". If I include more leads in a comparison you will hear this raspiness more. With this amp it's not even as prominent. With a tubemeister the difference was bigger. That amp is "fuzzier" and more saggy than the laney, which is rather unforgiving amp.


    My priority is better profiling, not so much effects or other stuff. I see the kpa as a device for "tone first". I can always use a good reverb pedal for effect. I am not saying kemper is miles apart from real. Amp - - just that there are characteristics that give it away, and they tend to matter to me in terms of feel and tone.


    The fact that kemper is as close gives me reason to hope it's possible to bridge whatever gap there still is.

    Edited once, last by Dimi84 ().

    Like 3
    Quote from Dimi84

    The fact that kemper is as close gives me reason to hope it's possible to bridge whatever gap there still is.

    Exactly. For me, it is only because the device is somewhat close that I am even expending time trying to raise concerns.


    That video is an excellent example of the issues. In various spots you can hear big as day the KPA does NOT sound like the reference nor even like a real amp. It seems the KPA does better with profiling gainy, scooped, drop-tuned busy material. Probably because there's so much going on it masks the issues. But when it comes to what I refer to as real guitar tone (grin) the KPA just often fails when it comes to serious recording applications, doesn't match the reference and/or even sound real.


    Listen to the comparisons in the video at these two locations:


    1) Approx 1:40 (Rhythm example) Totally not the same, raspy gain, congested, not even close to the source. Not even sounding natural.
    2) Approx 3:00 (Solo single-note example) Totally thins out the note, ruins solo tones.


    These are excellent examples of specifically what I've been raising concerns about for a good 6 months now. What I heard the very first day I plugged into the KPA.


    If these issues can be worked out I will be championing the KPA from the highest hilltops. But as it stands today the KPA is simply not very usable for serious recording efforts in my experience thus far.


    Sonic

    I agree that the differences make kemper sound more "fake".


    Just profile a gainy amp and play hard an A chord. You can also record a DI doing all kinds of leads. It's the same stuff in my tests: laney, tubemeister, orange, you name it. If you can hear it, it's going to be a big difference in feel.


    I dunno. I don't want the whole "cocked wah" sound in my leads. Obviously if it's there it's going to affect how I play. I do quite a bit of Gary Moore types of stuff and this is an issue.


    If I didn't hear it in other people's profiles... I'd assume I'm doing something wrong. But no. Time after time, the same stuff. Heck, I think I even heard this at Trivium gig (though that may totally be me being biased at this point).


    High on fever atm and just did this amp for someone. Maybe I'm just hearing things... I think the time is probably coming to move on from kemper -- cannot say I haven't tried. It doesn't matter what producer A, B or C says if, no matter what I do, I cannot get my tone as I want it while the real amp just feels "right".


    I hope support helps out eventually.


    Ok, bed time.. Sorry to be negative! I really really want the device to work for me. And to be fair to myself, I've probably put in 10 times the time most have here when it comes to profiling, testing, you name it. I've abstained from personal attacks and just tried to stick to the issues at hand.


    But tired! :) If there are people out there who do hear the same stuff in tests, have the same experience, and want the kemper to develop, send in support tickets. Not much to loose. I can always conduct tests, but it's not like these reach kemper by definition.


    Anyway, cheerios and thanks for your patience!


    'night :)

    Edited 4 times, last by Dimi84 ().

    Like 1

    For me the Kemper is sometimes identical and on other profiles it is a little different. The raspiness is often in real amp sounds as well though. An amp in a room can sound great and then have a nasty set of frequencies around 3-6k when mic'd up.


    For recording I use the Kemper if it sounds just right and then a real amp if I want that sound. For live use it is not so critical and using the DI to FOH has a huge benefit of losing all the bleed from other instruments on stage.


    I would totally support work on the basic profiling above any other effects or editors. For me those are all bells and whistles and the Kemper already has far more effects than anything I have ever used.

    Karl


    Kemper Rack OS 9.0.5 - Mac OS X 12.6.7

    Like 1

    Dimi you make good points and produce FAIR Game in your test and give an honest account of these results in your opinions, plus its thoroughly enjoyable to read your point of you man , sorry its the truth. May i ask some thing which i am sure many of us are curious given your ear. Can you post your opinions on the GOOD points or strength you have found?


    Ash

    Have a beer and don't sneer. -CJ. Two non powered Kempers -Two mission stereo FRFR Cabs - Ditto X4 -TC electronic Mimiq.

    @ashtweth
    There are definitely good points, and for people who use the device for something other than serious recording it may be fine.


    Features & tweakability are good, feel is within acceptable range IMO (which is an accomplishment for something trying to emulate a tube amp) and the device has a good usability design. And a supportive community (unless someone points out something negative, lol) But IMO for serious recording any potential good aspects of the KPA are a distant second to core tone. If the tone isn't right it's game over.


    It should be rather easy for Kemper to identify what the differences are by simply looking at the wave-forms of the tests that have been posted and/or sent in to Support. Whether or not the issues are fixable is another story. But I would think if some limitation prevents a direct improvement to the tone engine then at a minimum they would be able to at least provide some improvements to the profiling and/or refining process, or more detailed instruction on refining, or maybe some sort of new control that can dial out the congestion (like the space control). SOMETHING to address the issue.


    I believe amp tone replication in the industry has become so close on many fronts (profiling, modeling, software, etc) that any day now somebody is going to evolve their product (or introduce new product) that is going to nail an amp so close it will be deemed identical enough for serious recording purposes. We are almost there now. And once this happens, any devices that don't have their act together in the core tone department are going to be left in the dust quickly thereafter.


    Sonic

    I've stopped bitching and just sent more stuff to kemper to evaluate.


    On good points..


    1) The cab modelling is great. Comparing the cab modelling side by side to axe I much prefer most good kemper cabs (and that's largely due to Sinmix who probably has the best cabs out of most if not everybody here!).


    2) That said I can emulate the kemper cab by converting to the Axe IR. If I then proceed to use an axe amp model and dial it in similar to the kemper profile I get very near the same tone -- I'd say the axe in that test sounds less raspy, but I'd have to conduct tests and listen back.


    3) This leads me to think that whatever I see "off" with kemper has more to do with its amp modelling. But it could also be about cabs -- I simply haven't conducted enough test on that end to be sure. I'm confident that is the case, but not totally sure.


    4) Format, convenience, weight, looks (yea I said that), ease of replicating tones (it's more complex with something like bias amp).


    5) The cleans are way closer to source than distorted tones, and I love playing through good cleans.


    6) The profiles take boosts quite well. Again I'd have to conduct tests to show how well.


    7) The effects, even if not axe level, are good enough for me to use without thinking that I need something else (although I use maxon over the built in boost).


    8) I don't need a wah pedal since my profiles sound like they have a wah on them already :D (Ok, I'm joking now).


    9) Considering how kemper states the unit may have issues profiling preamp and power amp distortion, I have rarely run into such issues. It's more about the differences that exist anyway, and may seem to be bigger when you the amp gets saggier.


    10) I like the fact that there's a forum accompanied with the product that tends to be quite "free" (well I did have thread closed up but anyway), because this seems great for developing firmware.

    Another example: same DI as before, run through Tubemeister 18, studio profile, through redbox.


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    Quote from karlic

    For me the Kemper is sometimes identical and on other profiles it is a little different. The raspiness is often in real amp sounds as well though. An amp in a room can sound great and then have a nasty set of frequencies around 3-6k when mic'd up.


    For recording I use the Kemper if it sounds just right and then a real amp if I want that sound. For live use it is not so critical and using the DI to FOH has a huge benefit of losing all the bleed from other instruments on stage.


    I would totally support work on the basic profiling above any other effects or editors. For me those are all bells and whistles and the Kemper already has far more effects than anything I have ever used.

    Real amps can be "raspy". But we are posting comparisons against the real amp, showing the rapsiness issue being way more prominent on kemper. I can live with the level of "raspyness" coming from my amps, whether miced up, through cab emulation, whatever is the case -- but with the profiles my ears start to complain.

    I mean.. there are a lot of things to like about kemper. I don't need kemper to record. I can use axe, torpedo, helix, bias. I don't own all these devices, but can have them if I need to; plus I can sell kemper and buy one if I want to.


    The reason I'm sticking to kemper until now is precisely because of positive sides of the unit. Even if axe and kemper sounded 100% the same, I would still use kemper due to the format, which works better for me, the unit UI, ect, the simplicity of how it works.


    A lot of things the kemper hits very "right", especially for someone who doesn't care about effects to an expert effects-maniac level, which wasn't the goal of unit to begin with.


    Kemper themselves have told me nobody (before me) had even reported the tonal issues. No commercial seller, nobody. So either 1) I am consistently doing something wrong (which isn't intentional, much to the contrary I've been trying to make things work for a long time now or 2) there's some shortcoming in the profiling process.


    If it's the second, it could be that 1) it's not fixable due to hardware limitations (I doubt this, for a few reasons at this point) or that 2) it's fixable, not many people ever cared about it, most not profiling amps, and some commercial sellers not putting such focus on detail and 3) it can be addressed through minor tweaks.


    I mean, these frequencies live on a certain level. They can be analyzed to see why profiles seem to exaggerate them. If I'm doing something wrong, great, I would love to correct my profiling then and do another 100 tests open to public, no tickets needed. And if it's KPA inaccurate profiling that is the issue and this is addressed, again, great, I will be the first to do tests again, largely because my goal has been to profile my own amps.

    Edited once, last by Dimi84 ().

    Like 2

    Really good points Dimi /sonic, i appreciate the insights and report , its still very encouraging :).
    I cant believe how good Dimi's ear is tho man, to hear the difference at a trivium concert !!
    Maybe Dimi did not drink enough beer :D
    Maybe thats how we can fix it 8o:rolleyes:


    Ash

    Have a beer and don't sneer. -CJ. Two non powered Kempers -Two mission stereo FRFR Cabs - Ditto X4 -TC electronic Mimiq.

    Quote from ashtweth

    Really good points Dimi /sonic, i appreciate the insights and report , its still very encouraging :).
    I cant believe how good Dimi's ear is tho man, to hear the difference at a trivium concert !!
    Maybe Dimi did not drink enough beer :D
    Maybe thats how we can fix it 8o:rolleyes:


    Ash

    That was most likely just bias on my part (about the trivium thing) Plus I was so high on fever :D Hence the weird post.


    Also I don't like beer :D (not joking). I like lemonade. With bubbles (whatever they are called)


    Cheers :)

    Plus I have a video testing out a great guitarist, him guessing between KPA and real amp while in A/B mode.


    Take away: he thought kemper 1) cleaned up more than real amp 2) was better for funk due to being more "spanky" 3) was "tighter", which he noted would "cut better in mix" 4) had "more presence" on leads and 5) even though cleaned up better than real amp, had a more quick progression from clean to distorted, which he didn't like as much -- it felt more "digital" to him in a way.


    So he guessed kemper from amp right 9 out of 11 times. However it was split which one he preferred. It really depended on what he was playing. And this is a player who uses volume knob of guitar almost exclusively just with one amp channel, live too.


    Interesting take away from this encounter. I'm just trying to edit out all the jokes we made that are not ok for youtube :)))

    Quote from Dimi84

    Kemper themselves have told me nobody (before me) had even reported the tonal issues. No commercial seller, nobody. So either 1) I am consistently doing something wrong (which isn't intentional, much to the contrary I've been trying to make things work for a long time now or 2) there's some shortcoming in the profiling process.


    If it's the second, it could be that 1) it's not fixable due to hardware limitations (I doubt this, for a few reasons at this point) or that 2) it's fixable, not many people ever cared about it, most not profiling amps, and some commercial sellers not putting such focus on detail and 3) it can be addressed through minor tweaks.

    There's also the very real possibility that people just think that "this is as good as it gets", or that nothing can be done - and don't contact support. Some just sell or return the unit without a word.

    Quote from Dimi84

    9) Considering how kemper states the unit may have issues profiling preamp and power amp distortion, I have rarely run into such issues. It's more about the differences that exist anyway, and may seem to be bigger when you the amp gets saggier.

    I definitely came across this one. We were trying to profile a Rocktron Prophesy preamp and the Kemper really struggled with the low end. We ended up dealing our some low with each to match it.


    It is an amazing product though and we have a company still committed to free updates.

    Karl


    Kemper Rack OS 9.0.5 - Mac OS X 12.6.7

    Like 1
    Quote from Dimi84

    2) That said I can emulate the kemper cab by converting to the Axe IR. If I then proceed to use an axe amp model and dial it in similar to the kemper profile I get very near the same tone -- I'd say the axe in that test sounds less raspy, but I'd have to conduct tests and listen back.

    It does sound less raspy, in my opinion. However, in regards to rasp, I've noticed that pickups with more high-end output seem to induce more rasp in both the Kemper and Axe FX, though much more so in the Kemper. I suspect cutting the high-end via EQ before the amp may help.



    Quote from Dimi84

    3) This leads me to think that whatever I see "off" with kemper has more to do with its amp modelling. But it could also be about cabs -- I simply haven't conducted enough test on that end to be sure. I'm confident that is the case, but not totally sure.

    I would concur with your assumptions. I've matched a few Kemper profiles using the same cabs captured via the Axe's IR capture utility and I don't hear any of the issues related to Kemper's shortcomings(eg. compression, rasp). Try pairing the KPA's amp section with the Axe's cabs and those issues mysteriously reappear.

    To my ears the axe has always sounded synthetic, too smooth, the essence of what digital is. Now of course people are still going to want that and as such the Kemper should be able to capture that sound if that's what you want/like, but I have to ask, are you guys profiling an axe or real amps?


    Because it's a known "limitation" that the Kemper won't exactly match other modelers if you profile them, it only emulates real tube amps, and even there it's limited in that it won't accurately capture a situation with both pre and power amp distortion (or I guess any multi-stage distortion) going on. So i.e. only preamp distortion which can be quite a caveat if you're into classic doom or psychedelic tones.

    Quote from Per

    To my ears the axe has always sounded synthetic, too smooth, the essence of what digital is.

    After capturing the cab section of the KPA in the Axe using the Axe's built-in IR capture utility, I was able to perfectly recreate some of Guido Bungenstock's profiles. With the right IR's, the Axe can sound amazing, and in my opinion the KPA has some fantastic sounding cabs.


    Quote from Per

    I have to ask, are you guys profiling an axe or real amps?

    I've profiled the Axe, and Dimi has profiled both.


    Quote from Per

    Because it's a known "limitation" that the Kemper won't exactly match other modelers if you profile them, it only emulates real tube amps, and even there it's limited in that it won't accurately capture a situation with both pre and power amp distortion (or I guess any multi-stage distortion) going on. So i.e. only preamp distortion which can be quite a caveat if you're into classic doom or psychedelic tones.

    The Kemper can accurately capture the Axe's amp modeling via direct profile, however it doesn't accurately handle cab sims, so you have to disable the cab block in the Axe otherwise the results won't be accurate. That said, the KPA can handle several distortion stages in a row, however only one stage can be distorting significantly.