@yngwierhoadsvaivaughan - last warning for your language. you're banned for 10 days and next time it'll be a permanent ban. this is not the way we communicate here.
I unsubscribed the threat days ago because I could not understand the bunch of postings about the axe here in the kpa forum. I only chime in for this comment:
Sinmix is permanently banned and this guys get's only a warning......what a shame.
I hope to see sinmix again in this forum!!!!!!
Written and unsubscribed this threat again.
No more off topic posts please
Another clip.
I was listening to this video (comparing various reverb units for guitar):
My fav is the Bricasti M7, Wow!
Next I like the Lexicons (480L, 70, really nice, PCM96 not bad) and the Eventide here sounded better than when I demo'd one (I probably did a bad job demoing it!)
The Yamaha was pretty good. Surprised there. The pedals all sounded the same or worse than anything you'd find in the KPA or Fractal.
I think the KPA could do with some better presets, because profilers have programmed amazing presets that SHOULD be made default in the Kemper.
It's probably why the Kemper gets a bad rap on effects. They did an awesome job on the Delay overhaul and presets. Others need this boost.
Bottom Line for this thread: the FXII has effects that are as good as many expensive Revebs, but Average compared to the whole range presented here
(not an exhaustive range, none of the old rack mounted reverbs in this text)
Great bang for the buck. I don't know if FXIII will be "better" effects. Probably just more routing and instantiation options, but definitely pro level and a great deal.
If they ARE better, then they'll maybe rise to the level of the Lexicons and that might make some interesting other uses. Vocals through and AXE?
That would make the price worth it then. Especially considering the PCM96 is what, $1500 or so and the Eventide Eclipses are in the $2k range alone?
But I'm seriously wondering if I should sell my body and buy an M7. Mmmmm. M7. I'm gonna dream in M7 Reverbs...
If you're playing mainly live it is a complete waste to buy a M7 or 480L. No one will hear the difference between a hi level dedicated reverb and the reverb of the KPA in a full blown live situation.
I'm seriously wondering if I should sell my body and buy an M7. Mmmmm. M7. I'm gonna dream in M7 Reverbs...
I've been looking at LiquidSonics Seventh Heaven, which is based on the Bricasti M7.
I can see the argument regarding tone, and the little tiny things that sway you hear and there, but that is simply too subjective. Different ears, different guitars, different pickups, different strings, it's too hot outside, the rooms too cold and your fingers feel funny, etc...etc...
What I was getting at is looking at the application, connections, software, ease of use, etc... It is always interesting to see what was solved with anything / If it is something that can be used, etc. Anyway, this topic wasn't worth the length it got. 
Although I do disagree with the "Hey, what's a AFX doin on on KPA..." blah. You should feel confident in the product you support enough to look at everything and anything. Ideas do not come from seclusion.
I've been looking at LiquidSonics Seventh Heaven, which is based on the Bricasti M7.
Gah-Wow! That's a killer plugin. Best reverb in a plugin I've ever heard.
I'm a bit tired of the plugin game and an hardware unit would be nice so there is no added latency. But this is an absolutely stunning copy of the M7.
Thanks for posting.
Another clip.
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Now that civility has been restored to this thread, I feel I can participate in the discussion.
The above video really illustrates why many would choose the Kemper over the Fractal product or at least why I went with the Kemper.
The player is doing a great job but the sound is so hi-fi and unnatural that the artifacts are very obvious in the top end mostly but it's also all over the frequency spectrum.
It sounds like an overly studio produced guitar tone. Actually this sounds more hi-fi and unnatural than previous versions of the AXE FX , I wonder if this due to the misuse of the increased fidelity suitable for an audio interface included in the unit that's making the amp models sound more lifeless and harsh. than previous versions.
The sound might work for a commercial spot, but for serious record, all this synthetic hi fi overproduced filtered compressed vibes are not very musical to my ears even though I'm sure that it could work for some players who aren't interested in authentic amp tones.
To my ears the Mooer Micro preamps I posted the link to earlier sound more natural and musical more specifically in the high end.
Dean_R,
Well if that guy is coming off a Micro Cube then he's feeling the Rock! haha
Yeah, that tone/guitar has some ice pick frequencies that are stabbing my poor ears.
Maybe there should be a 1073 emulation block?
Just found out that a Bricasti M7 Fusion-IR is available for the Slate Verbsuite. Didn't know they offered one, must have missed it.
I'll give that a whirl.
Yeah a 1073 could save the day.
I personally think based on listening and reading from guys who are experts in electrical engineering and modeling, that dynamic convolution is more accurate than algorithmic even according to Cliff Chase the Maker of AXE FX.
If you look around you will see acustica-audio who developed Nebula using dynamic convolution that allows them to sample or clone hardware reverbs. In the plugin world if you ever use Nebula you will hear a massive improvements over the best software plugins. They can also model EQ.
I used it for a while and it felt cumbersome to sample the hardware, If I remember correctly, you run along droned out wave , possibly sine wave sweep for close to an hour or more just to get one Knob. When I got the Kemper and within 20 seconds, my amp was nailed, I gave respect to Kemper. It's not 30 minutes to hours! So the KPA is definitely using a superior technology that's admittedly more accurate even by the competition.
I expect that any future development of a kemper 2 would be to model EQ Knobs and gain knobs and possibly even reverb hardware knobs similar to Nebula. I doubt anyone will be able to capture tube amp using the algorithmic approach. Many also keep missing the feel and response and don't realize that capturing the sound to be very close doesn't allow the listener to the audio clip assess if the feel is also accurate.
To get back to the AXE III announcement, there's no new technology announced, but ridiculously exploded DSP to run the same old algorithms knowing very well that Convolution will always be more accurate.
Anyone would be more enthusiastic if something other than the tired old approach has been announced, but knowing the context of when the AXE FX used to be at some point the King of modeling this announcement would have been huge hadn't not been that the Kemper many years ago had eclipsed the AXE FX from being considered the most advanced. The crazy question that a rational consumer would need to ask themselves, Fractal is asking for 2500 mainly from guitar players without specifically justifying the crazy premium. It by no stretch offers the best modeling as it did in 2008 or 2009. For FX, there are many guitar products that have better effects including Strymon to name just one.
I'm not a gambling man, but if I were, I would say the next product from Kemper and I suspect they're working on something new, again it will eclipse many of the current guitar product and the AXE FX III might be available on ebay for less than a few hundred dollars. AS I posted earlier, a new Mooer already can do advanced match EQ for less than $300 and Fractal is asking 2500 for nothing new. So now they're in the business of making audio interfaces?
Coldfrixon gave samples of an Axe-FX tone matching a profile pretty convincingly so I don't see how anyone here can talk about how the Axe just can't replicate tube tone. I noticed nobody would hazard a guess of his examples. One user getting personal while the other more vocal Axe critic bowed out only to return again ignoring the issue, and also repeating his assertion about what Cliff said while refusing to cite this claim. It's kind of embarrassing to read this thread as a fellow Kemper owner.
No matter the methods of how a tone is reached, what is important is that it achieves those ends. I've seen and heard enough over time to convince any rational person that Axe and Kemper are cut from the same mold even if the methods differ. Talking like one is superior to the other in tone is just silly at this point and suggests more of emotional defensiveness than an objective approach. The tone and arguments of those posts also reflect that.
There was a time when Axe users were toxic and defensive of things, especially when the Kemper was released. Over the years that has calmed down. Reading the Kemper forum this past year, the shoe has now gone on the other foot and this thread unfortunately highlights that fact. The OP wanted to talk about the specs for a competing product and before you know it the thread is littered with emotional attacks on Fractal & Cliff despite nobody even looking at it or hearing a single sample. This is why more and more avoid this community that was much more balanced and helpful in years past.
Dean_R:
Modularity is my preferred method. More equity. Can swap in/out as your budget allows and level of quality desires.
The all-in-one kind of gear reminds me of those TV's with VCR's in them.
Or TV's today that use Apps (Netflix, VUDU), but the apps are slow as molasses compared to a Roku3 because, well, most of the tech went into TV visuals and I/O ports.
With the modular approach, you can just swap out the Roku3 when there is a nice tech upgrade/crossgrade you want and just keep the TV.
Heck, we already ARE doing this. People using outboard effects for the KPA and FXII because there are better overdrives or compressors or something.
If I had a Modeler vision it would be to offer real sounding amp and bonafide but RELATED pedals.
So if a Peavey Classic 50 had the Phaser tube effect, I'd try and create that for my modeler. But not try and recreate pedal FXs
The spring reverb of a 65 Fender Deluxe Reverb. Stuff like that.
You want a Keeley 4-knob? Go buy the Keeley compressor.
I might allow for an add-on package. Like maybe a chip insert or downloadable package of "classic pedals" (ie Green pedal, yellow pedal, etc)
that historically were famous to commercial recordings.
Heck, let's be real, if there's an idea I would just do what Kemper DID because, well, it's working! haha and the only main bitching I see are "wahhh, where's my editor, wahhh" haha. (ok, maybe there's a bit of "Spring Reverb" in there, too)
What don't you hear?
This: "Why doesn't this KPA profile of a '55 Gibson sound like my '55 Gibson"?
What other modeler can sound like that amp? I've not heard one yet. Prove me wrong, but that kind of raw tone is what producers mean when they croon over the Kemper.
80's amps? Yeah, KPA and FXII can do that type of stuff all day long. BO-RING. I wanna hear the old raw amps where the paper is exploding. Is there an algorithm for paper? haha
Display MoreThe above video really illustrates why many would choose the Kemper over the Fractal product or at least why I went with the Kemper.
The player is doing a great job but the sound is so hi-fi and unnatural that the artifacts are very obvious in the top end mostly but it's also all over the frequency spectrum.
It sounds like an overly studio produced guitar tone. Actually this sounds more hi-fi and unnatural than previous versions of the AXE FX , I wonder if this due to the misuse of the increased fidelity suitable for an audio interface included in the unit that's making the amp models sound more lifeless and harsh. than previous versions.
The sound might work for a commercial spot, but for serious record, all this synthetic hi fi overproduced filtered compressed vibes are not very musical to my ears even though I'm sure that it could work for some players who aren't interested in authentic amp tones.
To my ears the Mooer Micro preamps I posted the link to earlier sound more natural and musical more specifically in the high end.
Nope, I didn't like the sound of that clip at all. I don't think it's representative of the new unit, much less the Axe FX II. As with most modelers and the Kemper, a lot of it's dependent on how they're dialed in or which profile's used. But no, I definitely wouldn't have used that tone to showcase the III.
Yeah, you can't really go too much on a YouTube clip.
There's so much involved with recording. When you find a great sound, you can approach better the absolute capability vs the average person's lack of adept engineering skill.
When my friend plays his AXE I have him play out my FRFR and I play through an Cab, and sometimes we switch.
The Cab has more 'oomph' that we all know and love, but while there are presets that have that awful shrill, his own dialed in presets don't.
I think this is true of many modelers: The presets are NOT their best foot forward. Why is that? There are so many good ones out there, Fractal should adopt user presets and Kemper should adopt commercial profiler presets as the unit default. Or is it they'd have to pay a licensing fee? IDK.
When I first got the Kemper (shipped to my job, guitar in hand) I was thinking "It's definitely got more usable amps than the 11R but..." until I got home and put some commercial profiles on it (as forum dwellers told me to do) That was the A-HA moment for me. Been hooked since. 3 years honey moon. Now just EXPECT it. I take its killer tones for granted.
I bet there are a decent number of ppl who returned units based solely on presets. (more earlier on perhaps) That is a shame.
honestly we already reached a point were all highend guitar processors sound amazing.
Every brand has their distinctive sound which is simply caused by the technology they use to make the profiles/models
but the differencies are sooo minimal that people should stop caring so much.
you guys know this video, right ?
of course there are differencies but none of them would make your mix or song sound bad
and devices like this aren't only about the sound, i sold my axe fx ultra back in the day not because i didn' like the sound anymore.
I sold it because every little change was a hassle everything needed menus and it had sooo many options that i never stopped tweaking.
Nothing is faster then the working the routing is fixed so you can use always a d.i. out when you plug something into the direct out ... with the axe fx andother devices it takes forever to make the routing...
and the kemper has the longest product lifespan ... and paried up with a wavemap device like the tone dexter you can also get amazing acoustic sounds ... and you can profile YOUR amp ...
packages like the helix and the axe fx give you a great arsenal of amps but what if your amp is missing or the model of you amp that you made isn't as good as your amp?
all i want to say is, they all sound good. the only thing that matter now is what is your application and what are your needs ... i prefer the kemper but just bought a helix lt and will buy the helix native soon because there is no solution of kemper yet that does that job ( i hope there will come a floor unit and a vst though, even if the vst is just something like a .kipr file loader without the profiling option, i'm often not in the studio and need to record ideas )
Bommel,
I'm always surprised what makes a good sound on tape vs a good live sound. They don't seem to be the same preference for me.
Just like said on this forum, the stand-alone good tone doesn't always translate to the "good in the band" tone, either.
if a sound works good in a mix is only a eq and loudness choice ... a quality tone imo comes by it's dynamics and gain structure and this is what all highenddevices nowadays bringt to the table ...
they all have weaknesses but none of them are really bad
dynamic convolution is more accurate than algorithmic even according to Cliff Chase the Maker of AXE FX.
I'm still interested in reading this quote from the source.
I doubt anyone will be able to capture tube amp using the algorithmic approach.
Profiling is based on an algorithm.
To get back to the AXE III announcement, there's no new technology announced, but ridiculously exploded DSP
Of course it uses newer technology. How could it deliver twice the performance of the DSPs in the Axe FX II if it didn't?
to run the same old algorithms knowing very well that Convolution will always be more accurate.
As mentioned previously, the algorithms will get updated over time, just like the Axe FX II.
Fractal is asking for 2500 mainly from guitar players without specifically justifying the crazy premium. It by no stretch offers the best modeling as it did in 2008 or 2009.
Of course FAS has offered justification for it by providing a slew of updated features and (will be providing) a ton of free updates in the future. Don't get me wrong, I love the Kemper, but how often do they update it? I'd love an editor and some new reverbs. A lot of people would, but at this point it's doubtful an editor will ever be released, and the reverbs have been in development for... I'm not sure... a couple of years? The Axe FX has an editor, top notch reverbs and other effects, and is updated on a frequent basis. I'm not knocking the Kemper, but I do wish it were updated more frequently.
For FX, there are many guitar products that have better effects including Strymon to name just one.
And how much would any Strymon pedal add to the cost of what consumers are already paying for a Kemper or Axe FX?
I'm not a gambling man, but if I were, I would say the next product from Kemper and I suspect they're working on something new, again it will eclipse many of the current guitar product and the AXE FX III might be available on ebay for less than a few hundred dollars.
One problem is that some people seem to have this conception that modeling is a zero sum game. The fact is, none of them are perfect, including the KPA and Axe FX. That's why I own both. I love the concept of profiling, but the tone controls don't react authentically, hence multiple profiles. That's not a major issue for me, but that's one area where the KPA falls short. On the flip side, the Axe FX can't capture your actual, physical rig. Most units have positives and negatives, but I'd urge you not to adopt an elitist attitude regarding the Kemper. How many members of this forum have accused members of the FAS forum of acting overzealous or like members of a cult? Both units are excellent in their own right, but neither are perfect. You're not talking to someone who's never used a Kemper. I have experience with (and own) both.
AS I posted earlier, a new Mooer already can do advanced match EQ for less than $300 and Fractal is asking 2500 for nothing new.
I get the feeling you're being serious. That's like comparing a Swiss Army Knife to a can opener. The Mooer Preamp can't do 1/10th of what the Axe FX II (much less the III) can and you wonder why the Axe FX III costs so much more? It's not worth bothering to compare the feature set of both.
