One to One Knob Behavior between Amp and Kemper

  • I'd like to have a one to one circuit behavior for the parameter knobs on the Kemper so they acted exactly like the knobs on the original amp.


    Don't get me wrong. I love having the ability to change parameters on the profile that is not available on the tube amp from which it was derived.


    For example, if it was possible to model the knob behavior of a tube amp's gain control, I'd love to have the profile act the same way. The bottom line

    is that it would be nice to have what would essentially be a profile that included the knob function parameters of the original amp.

  • I think you might be served better by modelers like Fractal, as they do aim to do this kind of thing. Kemper does not. I do hope someday (KPA 2.0 maybe...) we'll be able to sweep through the eq/gain/etc knobs of the amp during the profiling process and end up with a profile that reacts to knob changes like the original amp. That would be something...

    Disclaimer: When I post demo clips for profiles, there will be some minimal post-processing, unless stated otherwise. I normally double-track hard L/R, and add to the main buss a small amount of EQ and a limiter/comp set pretty light as well. Sometimes I get test profiles in advance of release, though 90% of my clips will be from packs I have purchased.

  • I do hope someday (KPA 2.0 maybe...) we'll be able to sweep through the eq/gain/etc knobs of the amp during the profiling process and end up with a profile that reacts to knob changes like the original amp. That would be something...

    That certainly would be something. I hope I get to see that in my guitar playing lifetime

  • It’s not going to happen with the current profiling methodology and hardware. As far as I am aware, that would require a total overhaul that would result in Profiler 2.0.


    As Locrain said, that is how modellers like Fractal and Line6 work. It is a totally different approach from the ground up. If I was looking for that sort of functionality I would definitely buy an Axe or Helix.

  • I realize that parameter modeling (AKA knob behavior) is not in the Kemper paradigm as of now.


    However, I don't see why it could not be integrated as a separate mode of operation that could be added to the profile.


    Kemper is adding the Kemper Kone technology, so why not add some parameter mapping for knobs to better recreate

    the behavior of the amp that was profiled?


    Yes, it would take some new coding to adapt the profiling process to capture how the parameter changes the amp's

    sound as the amp knobs are turned. Even if just 3 knob types (EQ, gain and volume) were available, I'd be tickled.


    Or, Kemper could simply use the component / circuit modelling technology for just the knob behavior of specific amps.

    That would not really be sacrilege. Kemper Kone technology is likely using the same or at least a similar method to do

    its magic. It isn't like the Kemper Kone technology will cover every speaker ever made.


    I just don't see any reason why the two paradigms can't live together. Or even be mixed in a single profile.


    Take for example a Fender Bandmaster. You could have a set of parameters that used the Bandmaster's treble, bass,

    and volume knobs. But you could still have a gain parameter, which is available in the profile, but was never available

    on the actual amp.

  • I love what you're saying, being able to tweak each knob just like the real amp would be a game changer, yet again. I hope Kemper can do this for generation 2, though I'd imagine it will be more like generation 3 or 4 before we see this (at least another 20 years from now)


    It's a huuuge big step up, imagine the complexity of profiling algorhythm! you wouldn't just be capturing a single signal response like the Kemper does now for varying input impulses, you'd be asking it to capture and accurately model at least 40 (if each pot were captured at intervals of 0.25 rotation) times more data on each and every knob you wanted to capture. Say an amp has 10 knobs, that's 400 times more data. Imagine how long it would take to profile, the size of the file, the processing power required....


    I hope I'm proven wrong in my expectations of how far off this is as it would be the perfect product.

  • Actually, I am talking about a limit of three to five knobs that would be profiled. Maybe master volume, gain and treble presence and bass.

    Or the five band graphic EQ on a Mesa.


    And I am not including anything involving built in time based effects like reverb, tremolo, delay, etc. Just tone parameters.

  • I fully understand what you are proposing but as far as I understand it would be impossible to use current profiling technology to do this. You would need component level modelling like Axe and Helix. This would also come with a massive additional processing requirement which the Kemper wasn’t designed for.


    The biggest problem comes from the way even just the three knobs in a TMB tone stack interact with each other. Turning the Treble control affects how the other two work so it would be impossible to do enough single point profiles to create a tone stack that provides one to one likeness of the original amp.


    If you haven’t already done so, I highly recommend downloading the Duncan Amps tone stack calculator and playing with individual control s to see how they affect the others. If is really helpful to see it change visually in a real time graph and makes the whole concept come to life.

  • As mentioned above, due to the way that EQ knobs not only affect the EQ with different Qs, but actually change the frequencies that the other knobs affect, and in doing so, alter the effect of the first knob. It would be incredibly complex , and to me it seems several order of magnitude more difficult than current profiling. I think it could be done, but I would not hold your breath on it being implemented into the current generation. But I can't wait untill it happens. :D

    Disclaimer: When I post demo clips for profiles, there will be some minimal post-processing, unless stated otherwise. I normally double-track hard L/R, and add to the main buss a small amount of EQ and a limiter/comp set pretty light as well. Sometimes I get test profiles in advance of release, though 90% of my clips will be from packs I have purchased.

  • I fully understand what you are proposing but as far as I understand it would be impossible to use current profiling technology to do this. You would need component level modelling like Axe and Helix. This would also come with a massive additional processing requirement which the Kemper wasn’t designed for.


    The biggest problem comes from the way even just the three knobs in a TMB tone stack interact with each other. Turning the Treble control affects how the other two work so it would be impossible to do enough single point profiles to create a tone stack that provides one to one likeness of the original amp.


    If you haven’t already done so, I highly recommend downloading the Duncan Amps tone stack calculator and playing with individual control s to see how they affect the others. If is really helpful to see it change visually in a real time graph and makes the whole concept come to life.

    First you say that it can't be done, then link to an implementation that could actually be used in the Kemper as well :). Doesn't have to be "profiling". The Duncan concept would be interesting to have in itself.

    Kemper PowerRack | Rivera 4x12 V30 cab | Yamaha DXR10 pair | UA Apollo Twin Duo | Adam A7X | Cubase DAW
    Fender Telecaster 62 re-issue chambered mahogany | Kramer! (1988 or so...) | Gibson Les Paul R7 | Fender Stratocaster HBS-1 Classic Relic Custom Shop

  • First you say that it can't be done, then link to an implementation that could actually be used in the Kemper as well :). Doesn't have to be "profiling". The Duncan concept would be interesting to have in itself.

    I agree that it can be done with an alternative method but not current profiling. However, I also pointed out that in order to do it would probably require component level modelling. The Duncan tool doesn’t model the sound but merely shows the frequency plot of various component and circuit designs. The tool lets you swap resistor and capacitor values to see what effect they would have but doesn’t create that sound. In order to actually create that as a “sound” you would beed to model the effect which I suspect would require much more horsepower than the KPA was designed to provide.

  • I understand. But it's totally possible and easy to apply the resulting EQ curve from the Duncan tool on the audio. Will not be the exact same sound of the original stack for sure. But closer than today.

    Kemper PowerRack | Rivera 4x12 V30 cab | Yamaha DXR10 pair | UA Apollo Twin Duo | Adam A7X | Cubase DAW
    Fender Telecaster 62 re-issue chambered mahogany | Kramer! (1988 or so...) | Gibson Les Paul R7 | Fender Stratocaster HBS-1 Classic Relic Custom Shop

  • I agree in principle with you on that but don’t think it’s quite that simple.


    I’m neither and amp designer nor computer programmer so I could be wrong but a few problems that spring to mind include:


    Simply modelling a a simple tone stack’s interactive behaviour would only capture the tone element of the interactive relationship but wouldn’t necessarily capture the downstream effect it has on other parts of the system (such as power amp gain). This would be even more apparent in an Amp with a tone stack before the gain stages of the pre amp (Mesa Mark series for example). So it may provide a different tonal flavour but it may be optimistic to expect it to map the controls “one to one” as the OP requested.


    Using a modelling algorithm would require the tone stack to be programmed for each and every amp being profiled. That would require someone at Kemper to code every amp in existence. I can already hear the moaning of the forum and Facebook about the XYZ boutique amp (only 5 in existence globally) isn’t in the list of models -come on Kemper what are you playing at this amp is an absolute must have. 🤣 no matter how hard a company tries they will never be able to model everything.


    On a more positive note, there really are only a limited number of common tone circuits in everyday use. They also call TMB tone stacks FMV (Fender Marshall Vox) so it could be possible for Kemper to code a limited number of typical stacks which a user could select from a menu. I believe this is something ckemper has previously suggested may be possible but I haven’t heard anything about this for some time so have no idea whether it will ever be implemented. However, even this is clearly not what the OP was asking for. The post (and many other similar ones) seems to be asking for the ability to profile with the tone knobs at different positions and they magically convert that information into a single

    Profile that behaves like the real amp. That simply doesn’t seem possible with the current technology. I wouldn’t be surprised if CK and the team did find a way to crack this problem one day but it would almost certainly require a new profiling process and new hardware.


    Some including V8guitar have suggested alternatives that work along the lines of morphing between profiles which might provide some sort of workaround but I have no idea whether the current hardware could handle that (I suspected not).