Room effects on profiles

Quote from Per

I'm arguing for the need to achieve a specific sound and a better emulation of the sound heard when recording a real amp in a real room with the mic further than 0 inches from the grill and the amp at ear splitting volumes in a deadened space.

The Kemper is very good, but it's not perfect. You have to add reverb if you want the result to sound close to the real deal. My goal may not be your goal with the Kemper.

It means that the profiling should be able to take the time signature of the room, as when you're making impulse of a given place with a sweep or a shotgun-like sound then deconvolving...
I agree it's not what it does for now...
Technically, it should be possible for the profiling process to capture an impulse, but how to ged rid of the pream/amp/speaker/mic part of it...?

CK said that convolution is very different from the way the KPA works. Thus it´s not planned to integrate something like this into the KPA. Though i would have liked it, i can live without it.

I think the reverb in the KPA is great, you just need to know how to dial it in. Most presets on the KPA use way too long reverb times. I would try the following: Set the mix to 100% wet, an then reduce the reverb time to a minimum. Afterwards, use the damping on the reverb to make it sound a little warmer. In the end, add a little more "dry" on the mix level to make it a little more subtle. Imo you can get a very natural "in the room" sound this way.

Quote from Per

I'm arguing for the need to achieve a specific sound and a better emulation of the sound heard when recording a real amp in a real room with the mic further than 0 inches from the grill and the amp at ear splitting volumes in a deadened space.

The Kemper is very good, but it's not perfect. You have to add reverb if you want the result to sound close to the real deal. My goal may not be your goal with the Kemper.

Of course you have to add reverb, that is Digital Modeling 101. To accurately emulate an object in space, there has to be "space". That said, actual room reflections will never be part of a profile as it's not taking a traditional impulse. I guess I just don't get what your asking for. So you perfectly emulate a space in the Kemper and track it, but it sticks out like a sore thumb as none of the other instruments are treated with the same verb. If it's just for playing solo, the space parameter is pretty darn effective for headphone use. the Kemper is of course not perfect, (nothing is) but it is a huge step forward in being able to emulate pretty much any amp/mic combination with a high degree of accuracy. If you don't think the KPA is accurate in capturing the tonal changes of off axis and distance micing (within reason) techniques then I would suggest you experiment some more. IME, it was very good up to about 2 feet away. Is it going to exactly match the splash of an extremely live sounding room? Not without capturing an IR of the room and doing it in a DAW. If the Kemper ever adds a convolution reverb allowing one to load (or even shoot) impulses then you'd be able to do it all in box, but it still doesn't solve the issue of applying that environment to all the other instruments in the mix. I mean, listen to the below tones. Do they sound like an amp miced on the grill or do they sound dynamic and even atmospheric? I know David Torn might be an acquired taste for some, but thought these were appropriate to the conversation.

https://soundcloud.com/jayapal…2nd-pass-was-dirty-dr-now
https://soundcloud.com/jayapala/who-roams-v01-kpa-dt
https://soundcloud.com/jayapala/only-sky-dt
https://soundcloud.com/jayapala/reaching-barely-sparely

Per, I have to agree what Will says.
The Profiler is made for capturing amps in a professional situation. This is close mic'ing.
Even at a larger distance the amount of reflection is neglegtible in a mix.

When you go for distant mic'ing, where the room becomes significant, a number of circumstances arise:

1. The cab sound might differ due to the distance. The close mic sound is prefered by the most players and producers.
2. The room portion cannot be controlled afterwards.
3. Other instruments in the mix cannot be embedded into the same room. But this is a good habit on world class mixes that you are listening to.
4. The room must be captured in stereo, to sound like a room at reproduction.

For those who play guitar for recreation, the dry signal can fatigue a bit on the long run. The reverb can give you plenty of room. You can dial in very natural sounding rooms with it. The Damping parameter is the key.
On top there is the Space parameter, that pretty much does what you are requesting. Plus it's stereo and creates a very pleasant headphone signal, even when accompaigned by the big reverb.

We have no plans to add room convolution to the profiling process. No single pro player or producer has asked us for that in two years.

Christoph, what's your opinion on far-field miking, as favored by Jay Mitchell and others when acquiring cab IRs? I think he places the (reference) mic ~2m from the cab, with the mic and cab each at least 10 feet from the nearest wall so that room reflections aren't included. The thinking is that this more faithfully captures what one hears when playing through the cab in person.

Distant mic'ing might be a nice idea.

But what is the purpose? I can think of two:
You either want a linear speaker 'in the room' to sound like a guitar cab, or you want a recording to sound 'less artificial'.

About the first: if you don't want to sound like on a recording, that is playing through a microphone, play through a real guitar speaker. A guitar speaker can never be beaten by a linear speaker in terms of authenticity and bang for the bugs, as the technique is so simple, but taylored and perfected for guitar amps. You must have a sized PA system to create the bass impression of a 4x12.

About the latter: Is a mic'ed sound artificial? I'd say no. The whole world and a whole culture is listening to close-mic'ed cabs since more than a half century on recordings and live venues. A minority only (the guitarists themselve included) is used to the 'amp-in-the-room' sound.

A small minority of guitarists have listened to his guitar hero 'amp-in-the-room', as you needed an invitation to his rehearsal room. To me it's a bit bizzare that many guitarists don't understand the sound that goes to the crowd, and leave the mic'ing issue at the FOH engineer. A digital amp with virtual speaker is a good step forward to get the control back. But then many have immense problems to get used to the sound, that has always been presented to the crowd. It might me artificial, but it's everywhere!

Why longing for distant mic'ing and 'amp-in-the-room' sound, while you have listened to the close mic sound of your heroes all your life? Didn't you like the sound?

Back to Jay Mitchels attemts.
I haven't had the chance to listen to those IR's yet. Are they taken by a single microphone?

If I was to capture a cab in the room, I would use not just one, but a handfull of mics placed in the room, to capture different aspects of the cab as well as the room itself. I would place those signals in a stereo panorama to get the full picture. This is common practice when recording a violin, acoustic guitar, piano or drums.

Well, if this would produce more appealing sounds, this practice would have been established decades ago with guitar cabs.

I can see both sides of it. In my Pink Floyd tribute project, my goal is definitely to emulate the recorded (presumably close-miked) tones. But I can also understand wanting to convey to an audience sounds from the guitarist's listening position. Is the KPA compatible with the type of distant miking as described? I don't know the specifics on how Jay captures his IRs, maybe he'll chime in at some point.

Christoph and Will, I'll be blunt. I had thought the purpose of the Kemper was to profile (capture) and recreate the sound of a mic'd up amp. Was I wrong?

To me the dry signal isn't merely fatiguing, It's fundamentally wrong. I find that the "minimal" room stuff is still noticeable and critical to the glue of a mix. Yes close micing with hard gates and pods ares popular now for all those Simon Cowel Bontempi Karaoke backing tracks out there, but it wasn't always that way. Listen to all the classic rock recordings, sometimes it's a group of musicians making live music in a room together, sometimes not. But a good room or space is something that you go to a studio for in the first place, and the greater sense of air than before was the reason I think many were wowed by and moved to the Kemper too.

Lets say you use the Kemper on a project at a studio that has a good room. Now how do you make the Kemper work in the mix with everything else that's been recorded in that good room? I think it's undervaluing the product's potential to assume that the Kemper must be used as part of a completely ITB solution only with many different "rooms". It's like saying "here's a new surfboard that will revolutionize the competitive surfing world, only don't use it in non chlorinated water".

I'm not sure that the Kemper could even do the job of profiling a room, maybe something for a later model or an additional product. As I've already said before I use my DAW and the Apollo to add reverb. I have a solution that works for me right now,. It would however be awesome to have a great solution in the box as I'm sure there are many people who would like and even need that. Not to mention it's pretty self evident this is the next evolutionary stage required for guitar amp modeling as the talk of "missing air" is still on many lips in the world of digital modeling. Someone is going to invest that time at some point, because outside of the professionals in studios all of the amateurs like myself who are probably the vast majority of the market if we're honest still want to sound like AC/DC, Hendrix, Led Zep, Van Halen and the rest, they still want to sound like their heroes from the past, or even present who are still using real amps in real nice spaces, and we still all have ears, and pockets maybe deep enough for a nice modeler, or valve amp, but not a full vintage setup and studio time whenever we want.

To put it another more business oriented/opportunity sounding way : You know how it's really hard to dial in a modeler to sound like a real amp? Well that's also true for reverb and real rooms/spaces.

Per

If you were to achieve the 'amp in the room' sound including the natural reverb/ambience, etc, in a Profile, and use it in your recordings, how would you achieve the same 'in the room' sound with the other instruments in the recording/mix?
I'm assuming you use programmed drums and other DI equipment/software for the rest of the instruments...which won't capture the "air/ambience" of the room?

Let's say you happen to have this 'room' at home, and you have other band members/session musicians available.
You get them all in, setup mics all over the room, mic your amp, and start recording...I suppose you'll get that natural 'live jamming in the room' atmosphere, which I think is what you're want in a Profile.
Well, if you're prepared to go to all that trouble and expense, then setup your Kemper in this same room instead of your mic'd amp, Kemper into a poweramp and speaker cab, and the mics all over the room will capture the Kemper just as they captured your mic'd amp.

When I listen to Pompei, leading to DSOTM, and then Gilmours solos on "Dogs", I wonder how much of the ambience is real and how much was engineered in the studio...I can't tell, I don't know.

[quote='timowens','index.php?page=Thread&postID=103651#post103651']Since I started this thread, I feel like I need to clarify something…

I was always an “Amp In The Room” kind of guy, I saw digital processors as a major compromise because not only did they not sound like an amp in the room, they felt and sounded sterile to me (including the Axe II). When I first tried the KPA live I was pleasantly surprised, did it sound like an amp in the room, no, but it was somehow very pleasant to play, it gave me the best controlled feedback that I’ve ever experienced with a digital processor, it didn’t sound like an amp in the room but it sure felt like it. In my classic rock band I play with another guitarist who always plays a tube amp, and IMHO the KPA was the first digital processor that was able to keep up with a real tube amp. I am starting to reconsider this need for “Amp In The Room” sound.

+1000 on this, I cant get the amp i the room sound like the other guitarist in our band, I'm so close to getting a real tube amp again to keep up. I use the kemper tru a mesa 2:90 an tow 4x12 cab, but I'm still not there.

+1000 to be abel to dail out som of the mic sound and have a more of the amp in the room kind of sound.

Just my 2 cent

Per, I might dissappoint your romantic feelings, but the mentioned all-time heroes AC/DC, Hendrix, Led Zep, Van Halen all play(ed) the 'wrong' close-mic sound.
The amp was never place in the same room with other instruments, as it would bleed into the microphones of drum or voice.

In music videos you still see the band playing together in one big studio room. That is romantic and nice, but unfortunately a fake. Mostly the bands don't even play at the same time. Multitrack recording, sequencial recording and overdubbing was introduced in the 60's.

Quote from Guitartone

Per

If you were to achieve the 'amp in the room' sound including the natural reverb/ambience, etc, in a Profile, and use it in your recordings, how would you achieve the same 'in the room' sound with the other instruments in the recording/mix?
I'm assuming you use programmed drums and other DI equipment/software for the rest of the instruments...which won't capture the "air/ambience" of the room?

Let's say you happen to have this 'room' at home, and you have other band members/session musicians available.
You get them all in, setup mics all over the room, mic your amp, and start recording...I suppose you'll get that natural 'live jamming in the room' atmosphere, which I think is what you're want in a Profile.
Well, if you're prepared to go to all that trouble and expense, then setup your Kemper in this same room instead of your mic'd amp, Kemper into a poweramp and speaker cab, and the mics all over the room will capture the Kemper just as they captured your mic'd amp.

When I listen to Pompei, leading to DSOTM, and then Gilmours solos on "Dogs", I wonder how much of the ambience is real and how much was engineered in the studio...I can't tell, I don't know.

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By using the same room. Didn't you read my last response? How is the Kemper meant to be used in a real studio?

Quote from Gibson

+1000 on this, I cant get the amp i the room sound like the other guitarist in our band, I'm so close to getting a real tube amp again to keep up. I use the kemper tru a mesa 2:90 an tow 4x12 cab, but I'm still not there.

+1000 to be abel to dail out som of the mic sound and have a more of the amp in the room kind of sound.

Just my 2 cent

Are you using the cab portion of KPA when going into the cabinet?

I'd try using a SS power amp instead. Or are you using preamp profiles with the 2:90? If you're using full profiles, the additional coloring and compression etc from the 2:90 might be too much.

The "amp in the room" sound is a faulty expression. Should be "cab in the room" sound, as it is the cabinet that makes the difference...and it can never be replicated through a regular fullrange (so called FRFRFRFRFRFRFRFRFRFR) cabinet.

Quote from ckemper

Per, I might dissappoint your romantic feelings, but the mentioned all-time heroes AC/DC, Hendrix, Led Zep, Van Halen all play(ed) the 'wrong' close-mic sound.
The amp was never place in the same room with other instruments, as it would bleed into the microphones of drum or voice.

In music videos you still see the band playing together in one big studio room. That is romantic and nice, but unfortunately a fake. Mostly the bands don't even play at the same time. Multitrack recording, sequencial recording and overdubbing was introduced in the 60's.

Seriously, you can't hear this? Why so resistant?

So on Jimi, Eddie stated he used a cluster of mics up close and a U67 at distance to get ambiance. For Back in Black Tony used a U87 for room ambiance as well as one and a U67 each on the guitars. VH likewise although unlike the others that were mic'd at a small distance + room VH was on grill + room for a much more aggressive and tight sound.

Their sound still has plenty of room in it (as well as studio reverb on top of that). Imagine profiling any of their sounds at their sessions then trying to get them to redo a section of track at home with their Kemper to drop in. It's not going to work. The studio reverb well the mixing engineer can do that, but the room sound? Simply can't happen.

As for it being a fantasy that musicians record together in the same room, maybe with bands that can't play, synth pop, or metal bands going for that almost synth like precision. But it actually happens, and continued to happen long after Les invented multitracking in the 30's and first used it in the 40's. Forget music videos and check out session videos. This stuff happens still to this day, both for those that want this (like most small Jazz bands) as well as those on extreme shoestring budgets. More importantly recording in the same room != recording together. Rooms and spaces are important when recording, trying to take them out of the equation and pretending they're not there seems more of a perverse fantasy to me than acknowledging this fact.

What exactly do you want, Per? A convolution reverb engine in the KPA? I don't quite see why I'd need the KPA to do this, as it is something I'd like to control in the mixing stage anyway. If you need the genuine sound of a cab in a particular room....send a foldback of the recorded guitar to that room, or reamp the Kemper into a cabinet, and use it as a chamber.

Quote from Per

How is the Kemper meant to be used in a real studio?

Well, most engineers are happy to use it direct, but you want to do something different, so you'll just have to use a different method.
Plug your Kemper into a poweramp/cab, mic the cab in your 'room' of choice, and record.

Have you done that with your real amp, mic'd and recorded it in your 'room' of choice...do you have some recordings to post?

Quote from Trazan

What exactly do you want, Per? A convolution reverb engine in the KPA? I don't quite see why I'd need the KPA to do this, as it is something I'd like to control in the mixing stage anyway. If you need the genuine sound of a cab in a particular room....send a foldback of the recorded guitar to that room, or reamp the Kemper into a cabinet, and use it as a chamber.

If you have access to that room again, but then why use the Kemper?

I don't see why it's a bad thing to want to capture the room or why that's so unreasonable to ask. It's a part of the sound as much ass every other component. The Kemper may not be able to do it, but it's pretty obvious it's the next step in modelers. Unless you can think of any other thing that can be improved upon for amp modeling from where the Kemper is right now in order to get closer to the sound or a real recorded amp. I can't because the Kemper nails pretty much everything else, were at the point where I don't think distortion itself can be modeled noticeably better than is it now, perhaps a little bit of improvement on feel, but its going to be very subtle stuff.

Guitarists and engineers are still missing the "air" as they like to call it, which is simply room sound. You can't convince them that their ears are wrong and at the modeler is more perfect than what they're used to. The Kemper simply isn't perfect. Great? Yes. Perfect? No. At least not if the aim is to sound like a recorded real amp.

Quote from Per

If you have access to that room again, but then why use the Kemper?

I don't see why it's a bad thing to want to capture the room or why that's so unreasonable to ask. It's a part of the sound as much ass every other component. The Kemper may not be able to do it, but it's pretty obvious it's the next step in modelers. Unless you can think of any other thing that can be improved upon for amp modeling from where the Kemper is right now in order to get closer to the sound or a real recorded amp. I can't because the Kemper nails pretty much everything else, were at the point where I don't think distortion itself can be modeled noticeably better than is it now, perhaps a little bit of improvement on feel, but its going to be very subtle stuff.

Guitarists and engineers are still missing the "air" as they like to call it, which is simply room sound. You can't convince them that their ears are wrong and at the modeler is more perfect than what they're used to. The Kemper simply isn't perfect. Great? Yes. Perfect? No. At least not if the aim is to sound like a recorded real amp.

Why use the Kemper? For the amp sounds, obviously For the sound of a real cab in a real room, connect the KPA to a real cab in a real room.

I just think this is outside of "guitar amp" territory. It's specific to a particular song, arrangement etc...a production choice. In the capturing process you'd have to involve a somewhat complete studio....why not keep the IR's on the computer/harddrive and process them with convolution software there, rather than export them to the KPA?

The KPA is by far the best fake guitar amp out there (to me), but I can't say that it can't be even better at it. There's still things, complete character of certain amps, it can't do!