First gig yesterday -- impressions, and finding my sound in the band

    So I took my Kemper on stage for the first time yesterday, having owned it for about a month now.


    Everything went pretty well; the sound guy was happy. I had thought about different connecting options beforehand; eventually I sent one XRL out to the PA and one to my two Alto ts112a active speakers as a backline (I don't use stereo effects extensively at the moment, only some ping pong delays here and there, and I figured it wouldn't hurt if they ping-ponged between the back and the front of the stage instead of left to right).


    In short, setting up, the part I had been the most nervous about, was an absolute breeze.


    One complaint I did get afterwards was that my guitar sounded "weaker" to the audience than that of the other guitarist, who plays through a 'classic' setup: a Peavey 5150ii and a miked cab. Now, this could be a volume issue caused by the sound guy (I could hear myself alright through the stage monitors), or it could be my peculiar back-to-front stereo setup (although my 'basic' distorted sound doesn't involve any stereo effects), but it's something that I've noticed during rehearsals as well. My sound is less focused, less "projected" somehow; it has plenty of highs and lows but seems to lack "body".


    Is it the old "amp in the room" issue? I tend to think it isn't; at least, I'm not consciously looking for that and I don't care about mimicking the traditional guitar setup, I just want to sound good.


    I realize there are a lot of unknowns here. I don't know exactly how the other guitarist sets his amp to get that authoritative fullness. It could just be the profile I'm using (Lasse Lammert's Chug Chug); it sounds amazing at home volumes and in a recorded mix, but maybe it isn't that well suited for live use? Can anyone comment on that?


    Or are there any general tricks to get any profile to sound a little more focused? I'm not looking for ready-made solutions here; I haven't been able to experiment that much yet during rehearsals in the past month, so I will definitely start trying a lot of other rigs, boosts in front of the amp, EQ bumps at different places in the spectrum, tweaking the parameters in the Amp section... so, to clarify, this isn't a complaint about an issue with the Kemper (in fact, the smooth setup for the gig has made me even happier with it), just a "I need to do some fine-tuning, any tips?" thread!


    Oh yeah, here's my Kemper on stage (to the far right in the picture, right behind me)!

    Choose another profile. It's that simple.
    You could make a profile of the other guitarists amp. :)


    Did you take the chance to browse through the variety of profiles while you have been rehearsing with the band?
    If not, you have missed something.

    My advice is to turn down the amp's definition parameter a touch. Chug chug is a boosted 5150 3 iirc. That tightness comes at an expense, which is that it can be harder to cut through without getting harsh. Not sure its gonna be that simple but worth a shot

    Maybe try setting your Main out to Master Mono so that both your FOH and backline get the same signal. Better still, why not use the Monitor out for your back line.



    Quote from Robrecht

    or it could be my peculiar back-to-front stereo setup (although my 'basic' distorted sound doesn't involve any stereo effects), but it's something that I've noticed during rehearsals as well. My sound is less focused, less "projected" somehow; it has plenty of highs and lows but seems to lack "body".

    Also, be sure to make your sounds (tweak rigs) at stage volume. If a rig sounds good at low level, when you raise the SPL you'll hear a prominence of bass and high freqs, which seems exactly the issue you're reporting.
    Basically, if you use a higher volume than when you tweaked the sound, you shall add mids (or lower the other freqs and raise the overall volume.


    HTH :)

    The first thing that comes to mind with a stereo setup is you may have some phase cancellation going on, and that will always affect your tone negatively. Moving your speakers around can change this.

    PRS Singlecuts
    Kemper PowerHead/Remote



    Quote from skoczy

    When you turn the knob on KPA, you wake up the captured souls of tube amps living inside.

    How was it in rehearsals?
    Did you have the impression that both guitars have their sonic place?
    Or do you fight in the midrange.
    It's always good advice for a guitarist to occupy only a certain space and not to invade the territory of the bass and your fellow guitarist.

    Quote from ckemper

    Choose another profile. It's that simple.
    You could make a profile of the other guitarists amp. :)


    Did you take the chance to browse through the variety of profiles while you have been rehearsing with the band?
    If not, you have missed something.


    So you're saying there are tiny little other amps... inside my Kemper? 8| That sounds like crazy talk, mister Kemper!! 8o


    (I'm reminded of that guy on the forum who, if I understood his question correctly, thought the Kemper was an amp with only two channels: 'browse' and 'performance'...)


    Kidding aside, I know my question sounds a bit obvious. I have tried different profiles during rehearsals. Due to various circumstances, I didn't have a lot of full-on rehearsal time with my Kemper before the gig, so I had to settle with a basic sound quickly and work from there, but of course the first thing I'll do at the next band practice is going through all the profiles again. I've been thinking about profiling the other guitarist's amp -- if I can find a good mike I will!


    The problem is we only have one rehearsal a week, so I don't get to crank my speakers very often. That's why I wanted to collect as many tips and pointers as possible so I could make the most of those couple of hours next Friday.


    Quote from elvisscottyandbill

    If it sounds weaker then the first thing I'd try is the obvious I guess and crank up the volume a bit. Maybe try that in the next sound check.


    btw, you didn't mention if you carried a backup amp, just in case. Do you?


    Yeah, if I'd known during the gig, that would have been the first thing to ask the sound guy. The thing is I was pretty loud in the monitors on stage, and during the sound check I wasn't able to go and listen in front of the stage. The other guitarist (who has a wireless system) said it sounded ok but maybe he was biased towards his own guitar. :)


    I didn't have a backup amp (that's how much I trust my Kemper! :) ) but if anything had gone wrong I'm sure something could have been arranged -- some members of the other bands in the gig's lineup are good friends.


    Quote from meambobbo

    My advice is to turn down the amp's definition parameter a touch. Chug chug is a boosted 5150 3 iirc. That tightness comes at an expense, which is that it can be harder to cut through without getting harsh. Not sure its gonna be that simple but worth a shot


    Good point. I like Chug chug's general sound but I actually don't need it to be that tight. I'll be trying other profiles as well, but the tension between 'tightness' and 'cutting through the mix', and its relation to the definition parameter, is something to keep in mind.


    Quote from Gizmo

    Maybe try setting your Main out to Master Mono so that both your FOH and backline get the same signal. Better still, why not use the Monitor out for your back line.


    I decided to go with the main outs for both backline and FOH because I trusted the XLR cables I had with me more, and because I hadn't experimented that much with the monitor out yet (again because of time restraints the past few weeks), but next time I'll definitely do it the 'proper' way.


    Quote from viabcroce

    Also, be sure to make your sounds (tweak rigs) at stage volume. If a rig sounds good at low level, when you raise the SPL you'll hear a prominence of bass and high freqs, which seems exactly the issue you're reporting.
    Basically, if you use a higher volume than when you tweaked the sound, you shall add mids (or lower the other freqs and raise the overall volume.


    HTH :)


    I knew about differences in sound perception at different volumes, but I didn't know they affected the midrange versus highs and lows balance specifically. This may have been a big factor in my high volume sound. I'll definitely try EQ'ing to compensate for this at the next rehearsal!


    Quote from Desiato

    The first thing that comes to mind with a stereo setup is you may have some phase cancellation going on, and that will always affect your tone negatively. Moving your speakers around can change this.


    There weren't any actual stereo effects in my basic profile, but I guess phase cancellation can occur due to specific speaker placements with a mono signal as well. Something to keep in mind!


    Quote from Ingolf

    How was it in rehearsals?
    Did you have the impression that both guitars have their sonic place?
    Or do you right in the midrange.
    It's always good advice for a guitarist to occupy only a certain space and not to invade the territory of the bass and your fellow guitarist.


    That's something I try to pay attention to, but with our current setup (my Kemper's new and since I got it, the other guitarist switched to the amp I was using before) we're just not quite there yet. It's part of what I want to work on.


    Thanks guys -- I now have a lot of ideas to try next time I get to turn up the volume!

    Quote from Robrecht

    I knew about differences in sound perception at different volumes, but I didn't know they affected the midrange versus highs and lows balance specifically. This may have been a big factor in my high volume sound. I'll definitely try EQ'ing to compensate for this at the next rehearsal!


    It definitely boils down to this. Basically, human hearing gets more sensitive to mid freqs as long as the signal volume drops. So, if you play at low volume, you might want to tweak bass and high freqs up, which will be prominent once you raise the volume and the mid-boosting effect fades down.
    To get to know more you may visit this page.



    EQing-in a good compensation is a good idea, also try and make your sounds at concert level :thumbup:


    You might also store some different output settings for the different sound levels.


    HTH :)

    What viabroce posted basically. I have an eq on the X-slot with the lows cut 18dB for live playing and it seems to work pretty well to cancel out the difference.


    A 5150 is a low mid heavy amp, so you could try a boost in the midrange that is higher, like somewhere around 1.2kHz to get cut without stepping on the other guitarists tone. One thing to remember as well is that sound men usually mix in mono, so your stereo sound will never go further than the mixing desk.

    Hi robrecht,


    Thanks for creating such a thread, i am also in almost the same situation : rehearsal once a week, not really time left to tweak rigs at gig level ( while other band members would be waiting for me), and the other guitarist sound seems to be "fuller"


    I am sure that it is a pure equalization problem, but i could not find an easy way to solve it since i also tweak rigs at bedroom level.


    That's why i'm interested in knowing the results from your experiments.


    I'll be waiting to hear from you,
    Laurent


    Ps : i use a yamaha dxr8 on stage

    Laurent

    Sure, I'll report what works best after I've had a chance to play at high volumes again (hopefully this Friday)!


    I'm sure it's a common problem for many of us with time consuming day jobs, kids, homes in populated areas... we want to use those precious rehearsal times for actual playing so we tweak our sound at home, alone, using headphones or at low volumes, which is far from optimal for many different reasons.

    Hey folks, quick update. I've had one tweaking session at full volume last Friday, when only the other guitarist and I were present so we couldn't do a full rehearsal anyway.


    One thing I've learned is not to use the dials too gingerly. I think that, unconsciously, the idea that these rigs were made by people with a lot more experience than myself held me back before: "these guys know how a guitar should sound, so let's not mess that up by turning the treble down too far!" What I've now realized is that, first, turning up the volume to live levels will change the sound anyway, so it would take some deep EQ-ing to even restore the "intended" sound of the rig, and second, of course, that I should just trust my ears and look for the sound I want. It may sound obvious, but I guess it takes some time with new gear before you lose the timidity to push it to its limits.


    Another thing is that midrange helps. Our other guitarist gets a very bold, distinctive, warm sound from his 5150ii by turning midrange way up to about 3 o'clock, highs down to about 9 o'clock, and lows a little over noon, with a not too excessive amount of gain. I should not copy him exactly, to avoid getting overlapping our spectrum ranges, but his sound is so powerful that mine needs a lot of mids as well to hold its ground.


    I think overall I can say that the "problem" was definitely not inherent to any technical limitations of the KPA, but it is, in a sense, inherent to digital amp emulation in general: since it allows you to play at much lower volumes than actual tube amps, you fall into the trap of creating your sound at "bedroom" levels, away from the rest of the band, which doesn't automatically translate well to live situations.


    I'll try and post more detailed findings as I keep tweaking over the next rehearsals.

    Quote from Robrecht

    ... I think overall I can say that the "problem" was definitely not inherent to any technical limitations of the KPA, but it is, in a sense, inherent to digital amp emulation in general: since it allows you to play at much lower volumes than actual tube amps, you fall into the trap of creating your sound at "bedroom" levels, away from the rest of the band, which doesn't automatically translate well to live situations. ...

    Glad you've got things sorted out, but what you've described isn't due to "digital amp emulation" at all. The same issue exists with tube amps too. It's called the Fletcher-Munson curve.


    Long story short - create your patches at the volume level you intend to play them at.


    If you want to also play at bedroom (lower) volume level, re-EQ your gig volume level patches for lower volume use and save them as separate patches (e.g., you'd have an "Ozzy" patch that's EQ'd for bedroom volume level and an "Ozzy" patch that's EQ'd for gig volume level). Or at lower-volume you could possibly use the KPA's Master EQ controls (Output button) with the higher-volume patches and get the tone you want, but you won't be able to compensate for Fletcher-Munson as well as creating separate patches that are "tuned" for lower-volume use.

    Edited 3 times, last by VCuomo ().

    Quote from VCuomo

    Glad you've got things sorted out, but what you've described isn't due to "digital amp emulation" at all. The same issue exists with tube amps too. It's called the Fletcher-Munson curve.


    Long story short - create your patches at the volume level you intend to play them at.


    Sorry, that's what I meant, actually -- the Fletcher-Munson curves apply to any sound source, of course, I didn't mean to imply that they're somehow a "defect" of digital emulators. The only thing that links this issue to digital amp emulation is the fact that digital simulators can be played at very low volumes, or even through headphones, whereas with a 150W tube amp it's kind of a given that you have to play and tweak it loud. It's a convenience of digital emulators that can lead to user mistakes like mine -- i.e., not taking the effects of volume into account.


    And I agree, the best way is probably to create two versions of each rig so I can use the Studio EQ to make more precise adjustments (I'd love to have a full parametric EQ in the output section though...).


    Thanks everyone, I think I'm good to go! :)