Is this a legit way to sell profiles?

    I just read this thread on the ultimatemetal forum and it raises some questions about what is ok or not ok when selling profiles.
    http://www.ultimatemetal.com/f…etalcore-kemper-pack.html
    It appears he use profiles made from other kemper users and tweaks them with added IR's in DAW, then sells them.
    As some pointed out in the thread it is not very honest to customers and it's likely not ok to sell profiles made/shared by others like this.
    RustyNotes has posted previously on that forum and here on the forum in the commercial profiles section about a previous profile pack for sale. Maybe it's done the same way since he doesn't seem to own the amps?
    Rusty Notes Kemper pack


    the Rig Exchange clearly states:
    "By uploading a public rig, you grant Kemper Amps the right to offer this profile to all members of the Kemper Profiler community. You also grant others the right to use your uploaded profiles without restrictions. Others can pass your profiles on but cannot sell them in any way."

    I like to tweak and repost free profiles, but selling them... that's certainly questionable.


    To play devil's advocate, though, are the IR's he's applied to the profiles his own? Maybe he shot some IR's and wants to sell them, but instead of just selling the IR's, he's applying them to some of his favorite Kemper profiles and tweaking them to fit. I don't think that's so bad - really it's not different from telling people buy my IR's, then apply them to profiles x, y, and z which you can get here, then apply this EQ to the profile, etc. So he's just saving people a few steps.


    But I dunno.

    It's very clear that it's perfectly ok to tweak and share others free shared profiles for free, but not to sell them.
    It's not ok to take other's hard work they shared for free, then tweak it and take credit yourself and charge money. Also as Lokasenna pointed out, saying customers can't re-sell his profiles as their own looks strange.
    Anyone can create IR's in a DAW without even owning a real cab or mic, using something like Voxengo Deconvolver.
    Since he doesn't own the amps he market in the pack video he might have used that Voxengo method or used free or bought IR's from others and imported them via cab maker. So selling your own made IR's or kemper cabs and then give customers suggestion to what profiles they should be applied to, sure that's ok, but I don't think it's ok the way it's done here.

    Ultimately if somebody "tweaks" somebody else's profile why is their creativity worth any less than the first blokes?


    Nobody owns or can enforce anything to do with profiles here, this bloke can do whatever he wants and if you want it you can buy it, if not don't (all you've done here is advertise for him). Until someone is successfully prosecuted it's all just an opinion and not fact. This has already been done to death in the other "isn't this awful, and shouldn't we hang them all" thread, and as 95% of the commercial profiles are already out there it's already too late. I bought the AF rock pack that interested me and it was okay for thirty quid I suppose, but there are also lot of commercial profiles that are sub standard (I know because I bought quite a few of them too and ended up deleting them and using the free Ruppert Marshall as my base rig) and personally I feel the people trying to make money out of the profiler (Kemper excluded ofc :) ) violate the spirit of fraternity and creativity that the Kemper had naturally created, and have created an almost bitter division between some users. I have more than enough fun exploring the rig exchange with rig manager, and am surprised by how some of the best profiles out there are free and uploaded by completely unkown peeps who have only uploaded a couple of rigs.
    Anyway this (dodgy(in my opinion)) business model has all but gone, people are buying these now and sharing, so as soon as you sell one profile a large percentage of your customer base already has access to it. Nothing has changed really, if you want to buy them you can, if you want to "steal" them you can.

    Quote from coipu

    Ultimately if somebody "tweaks" somebody else's profile why is their creativity worth any less than the first blokes?

    Who is more creative is not an issue at all, the controversial aspect is to profit and sell other users amp profiles.
    I have not seen this shady business method before and you don't see any other studios selling profiles others made with their amps. All other studios have their own amps and cabs and provide info about their profile packs. There must be several reasons why all others who sell packs provide profile info and this guy doesn't.


    the Rig Exchange clearly states:
    "By uploading a public rig, you grant Kemper Amps the right to offer this profile to all members of the Kemper Profiler community. You also grant others the right to use your uploaded profiles without restrictions. Others can pass your profiles on but cannot sell them in any way."

    Quote from coipu

    I feel the people trying to make money out of the profiler (Kemper excluded ofc ) violate the spirit of fraternity and creativity that the Kemper had naturally created, and have created an almost bitter division between some users.


    TBH, I think that the feeling of the violation of this spirit is just in the mind of those who would like everything to be for free.
    Even before the Profiler hit the market, guitar players used to discuss on the various relevant forums about the amazing perspective of famous producers/artists putting their own profiles on the market.
    I am sure that if Gilmour put on sale a pack of his sounds no one would have anything to disagree about, most probably yourself included. If Gilmour is not unhetic, why is anyone else?


    A professional profiles creator is not taking anything away from anyone. On the contrary, he's adding cultural and technical value to Kemperland. It seems that free profiles are going on hitting the RE so the pros are not killing the community's spirit. On the contrary, they have raised the bar showing the world how good a profile can sound, so if the mean quality of the free profiles currently available is getting better and better it's also thanks to the pros-filers!
    And I can't see how having more choices can damage or offend anyone.


    Peace,

    Ok, I can understand peoples "frustration" with people selling on others profiles with tweaks.


    But lets look at the original profiles themselves.


    If we cast stones at the guys who sell on a profile with modifications, should we not also throw stones at the guy who made the original profiles, as he is also making a copy of someone elses work. (ie, the amp makers?)


    Its a very gray/grey area....no right, no wrong. I can understand all sides.
    In a perfect world, they'd all be free. But hey, a fair pay for a fair days work is always best. :thumbup:

    Quote from viabcroce

    TBH, I think that the feeling of the violation of this spirit is just in the mind of those who would like everything to be for free.
    Even before the Profiler hit the market, guitar players used to discuss on the various relevant forums about the amazing perspective of famous producers/artists putting their own profiles on the market.
    I am sure that if Gilmour put on sale a pack of his sounds no one would have anything to disagree about, most probably yourself included. If Gilmour is not unhetic, why is anyone else?


    A professional profiles creator is not taking anything away from anyone. On the contrary, he's adding cultural and technical value to Kemperland. It seems that free profiles are going on hitting the RE so the pros are not killing the community's spirit. On the contrary, they have raised the bar showing the world how good a profile can sound, so if the mean quality of the free profiles currently available is getting better and better it's also thanks to the pros-filers!
    And I can't see how having more choices can damage or offend anyone.


    Peace,


    The truth! Thanks for this post.


    Well, IMO there IS a fundamental difference between profiling an amp and tweaking an already existing rig.


    All in all I'd encourage each and every user to learn to use those knobs on your profiler.
    Nobody would even get started trying to sell tweaked profiles if people weren't so lazy and damn 'preset and ready' fixated.

    Quote from viabcroce

    TBH, I think that the feeling of the violation of this spirit is just in the mind of those who would like everything to be for free.
    Even before the Profiler hit the market, guitar players used to discuss on the various relevant forums about the amazing perspective of famous producers/artists putting their own profiles on the market.
    I am sure that if Gilmour put on sale a pack of his sounds no one would have anything to disagree about, most probably yourself included. If Gilmour is not unhetic, why is anyone else?


    A professional profiles creator is not taking anything away from anyone. On the contrary, he's adding cultural and technical value to Kemperland. It seems that free profiles are going on hitting the RE so the pros are not killing the community's spirit. On the contrary, they have raised the bar showing the world how good a profile can sound, so if the mean quality of the free profiles currently available is getting better and better it's also thanks to the pros-filers!
    And I can't see how having more choices can damage or offend anyone.


    Peace,


    Very well put! And I have to add that I would rather pay for quality rigs than to not have them at all.

    Quote from viabcroce

    On the contrary, they have raised the bar showing the world how good a profile can sound, so if the mean quality of the free profiles currently available is getting better and better it's also thanks to the pros-filers!


    Not really. It's due to having more experience with the product and knowing how everything is working together.


    Paid profiles are not the problem nor the fix. I could really care less either way, but they do put a damper on people making profiles for some reason. Whether it be a matter of feeling inferior or acceptance I have no idea. If everyone would profile their amp that has the Kemper then everyone would have a choice. Look at how the paid sector has increased......
    I wanted the Evil Robot......no other profiles out there so I bought Andy's. I use it a lot. I also use mine and a few other freebies. Not recognizing that aspect does not alleviate the fact. As we have all determined you will not have a consensus on this matter which is fine. Statements about everyone wanting everything free might have some validity, but it is a blanket statement that is overall incorrect. The main point....profile your amp.

    "More Guitar in the Monitors" :thumbup:


    The thread reads to me that he is Tone Matching his Podfarm presets into Kemper profiles. Not stealing other's profiles to add an IR to them.


    What gives you that impression?


    The way I look at it, someone profiling an amp has about the same culpability as someone who creates a computer font that duplicates a typewriter typeface. In other words, they're recreating the output, not the actual technology of the device itself. I don't see that as a big concern, personally. Someone who sells clones of the amp itself, on the other hand, is on questionable footing in my book. And similarly, reselling someone else's profile with minor differences is also not cool. But if someone creates a radically different profile by running someone else's profile through an IR, I don't have a huge problem with that.


    These are just my gut reactions upon hearing about this stuff. I'm not claiming to be a moral authority on anything.

    Quote from bshaw92

    Quoted from "viabcroce"



    On the contrary, they have raised the bar showing the world how good a profile can sound, so if the mean quality of the free profiles currently available is getting better and better it's also thanks to the pros-filers!


    Quote from bshaw92

    Not really. It's due to having more experience with the product and knowing how everything is working together.


    How can you exclude the reason I brought? Note I explicitly wrote it was not the only one.


    Quote from bshaw92

    Paid profiles are not the problem nor the fix. I could really care less either way, but they do put a damper on people making profiles for some reason. Whether it be a matter of feeling inferior or acceptance I have no idea. If everyone would profile their amp that has the Kemper then everyone would have a choice. Look at how the paid sector has increased......


    I wanted the Evil Robot......no other profiles out there so I bought Andy's. I use it a lot. I also use mine and a few other freebies. Not recognizing that aspect does not alleviate the fact. As we have all determined you will not have a consensus on this matter which is fine. Statements about everyone wanting everything free might have some validity, but it is a blanket statement that is overall incorrect. The main point....profile your amp.


    How do you relate the increasing of the paid sector and the damper on free-profile making? And how did you measure this damping?


    As for my blanket statement... I have the impression you're not reading with attention. I did never mention "everyone wanting everything for free" ?


    Not everyones profiling, that's for sure. I'm an example, but rest assured this is by no means related to pros making profiles better than me.
    Sure, certain amps are less popular than others, so they get less chances to be profiled. OTOH, if one owns a marshall which has been profiled tents of times already, they are of course less intersted in profiling it. Also, rarer amps get profiled relatively more just because they are such. Last but not least, be also sure that not all the made profiles get published, specially from the real pros (again, Gilmoure or the like).


    Basically, those who make profiles *and* publish them are not a great percentage of the population of kemper users IMO.