Master output direct to P.A. sounds terrible

No. When you say the sound is harsh and thin, from where do you mean exactly? Do you mean it sounds awful coming back through the monitors? Or have you stood FOH on all gigs?

Also, if you mean REALLY harsh and thin, like "something is wrong" kind of harsh and thin, then something is wrong. A LOT of people are running their KPAs direct to PA with no issues.

Further point, the KPA sounds like whatever combination of amp/cab/mic your profile is. Maybe you need a different profile.

Have you always used the same PA? Maybe it's the system that sounds bad...

Also, the mixer channel might have some eq tweak... Set it flat

Last, check that you're not using a mic channel/setting on the mixer strip, the Profiler outputs a line-level signal.

Which rig are you using?
Have you had another configuration or setting (different PA or monitor) where it sounded great?

What do you use for a monitor to program the KPA? Does it sound good from the monitor? I have had this issue through a PA and it was the a combination of the sound guy not setting up the board flat and some terrible cheap PA speakers. Now when it did happen it as usually on profiles with high gain settings, most of the others were fine. But this has only happened to me once and for the evening I tweaked the output EQ settings of the KPA to get it close and had the soundman adjust the board. If he is using cheap PA speakers I'm sure not only your guitar but the entire sound is bad. I have since used it from sound companies using JBL and Yamaha with high end mixer, never a problem with XLR out. In fact I have had the sound man come up after the set and ask what the hell are you playing through, the sound is amazing.

I would experiment with other possibilities, if you have access to another PA try that because if it sounds good out of your monitor then there is nothing wrong. What is your main output set on with the KPA? Try to keep it down and send a moderate signal to the board. Then make sure the sound man keeps the gain down and use the slider, if you need more volume then turn the gain up slightly until satisfied. Also check the XLR cable you are using make sure there is nothing wrong with it.

Live I either use my FRFR or main XLR out and use the house monitor mix to hear my guitar. Most of us do use the XLR out and either a FRFR or IEM's and others use a cabinet. Good luck and keep us posted. It's always nice to read the solutions in case we come across issues.

Quote from ronwijnands

I am beginning to suspect a incompatibility between the roland m400 and the kpa.

sorry, this doesn't make sense.
the Profiler has no signature sound, it reproduces the signal it was fed during profiling from the mic(s).

it has however a good, strong output, so if you connected it using the XLR outs and the mixer cannot disengage the mic preamp when receiving a XLR signal, then this could result in very unpleasant clipping.

please disable the mic pres on the board or try the 1/4" outs.
and make sure the Main Outs is set to Master Stereo.

hth

The KPA's XLR output is rather hot so I suspect that the FOH-mixer is clipping the signal. In my own setup I lower the KPA output by 20dB in the output configuration and detach the mains from the master volume. That puts it within the range of levels engineers expect from DI-attached equipment. Detaching the mains from the master volume give the sound-engineers full control of the level through FOH regardless of how I set the volume for monitoring. The KPA sounds great in this setup regardless of whether I connect my own FRFR to the monitor output or use the house front monitors.

Some techs insist on using DI, so connecting the 1/4" outs via DI-boxes to the FOH-mixer is another option.

Your KPA must be broken if none of these alternatives work.

Quote from heldal

The KPA's XLR output is rather hot so I suspect that the FOH-mixer is clipping the signal. In my own setup I lower the KPA output by 20dB in the output configuration and detach the mains from the master volume. That puts it within the range of levels engineers expect from DI-attached equipment. Detaching the mains from the master volume give the sound-engineers full control of the level through FOH regardless of how I set the volume for monitoring. The KPA sounds great in this setup regardless of whether I connect my own FRFR to the monitor output or use the house front monitors.

Some techs insist on using DI, so connecting the 1/4" outs via DI-boxes to the FOH-mixer is another option.

Your KPA must be broken if none of these alternatives work.

Good advice and exactly what I do as well.
Check the levels.

Quote from heldal

The KPA's XLR output is rather hot so I suspect that the FOH-mixer is clipping the signal. In my own setup I lower the KPA output by 20dB in the output configuration and detach the mains from the master volume. That puts it within the range of levels engineers expect from DI-attached equipment. Detaching the mains from the master volume give the sound-engineers full control of the level through FOH regardless of how I set the volume for monitoring. The KPA sounds great in this setup regardless of whether I connect my own FRFR to the monitor output or use the house front monitors.

Some techs insist on using DI, so connecting the 1/4" outs via DI-boxes to the FOH-mixer is another option.

Your KPA must be broken if none of these alternatives work.

Great info. I haven't bought mine yet. (Soon though, I hope) I'm planning on using mine for mostly live purposes. The reducing of the output by 20dBs, I get that, basically sending the engineer a mic level signal versus line level. (I'm assuming there is a global output level section.) what I don't get is "detaching the mains from the master volume." Could you please explain that?

Quote from Khaki_Lackey

Great info. I haven't bought mine yet. (Soon though, I hope) I'm planning on using mine for mostly live purposes. The reducing of the output by 20dBs, I get that, basically sending the engineer a mic level signal versus line level. (I'm assuming there is a global output level section.) what I don't get is "detaching the mains from the master volume." Could you please explain that?

You can link the main volume to the master volume so as you turn the master volume up it will turn the monitor up the same. You would want to unlink this if you are running your cab/FRFR from the monitor out. This then allows you to turn up your stage sound without affecting what signal FOH is getting

Yeah, it's basically that you can specify which of the different volumes (Main, monitor, headphone, SPDIF) the main volume knob grabs and which not.

Great stuff. Thanks, guys.

Quote from Khaki_Lackey

The reducing of the output by 20dBs, I get that, basically sending the engineer a mic level signal versus line level.

Do not do this! Send a clean and robust line level to the mix desk and tell the man to treat it like it were from a synth.
The lower the signal, the higher the noise.

Quote from viabcroce

Send a clean and robust line level to the mix desk and tell the man to treat it like it were from a synth.
The lower the signal, the higher the noise.

Many modern mixers only come with mic-preamps, and requre DI for anything line-level. Whether you lower the KPAs output to something closer to mic-level or run the signal through a DI transformer makes little to no difference wrt noise. My spectrum analyser actually indicate that any of the DI-boxes in my possession add significantly more noise than reducing the KPA output and re-amplifying the signal through a decent mic-preamp.

Not sure I'm reading this right but it seems almost like the OP is sending a signal to FOH with cab sims off. Just a hunch.

Quote from heldal

Many modern mixers only come with mic-preamps, and requre DI for anything line-level. Whether you lower the KPAs output to something closer to mic-level or run the signal through a DI transformer makes little to no difference wrt noise. My spectrum analyser actually indicate that any of the DI-boxes in my possession add significantly more noise than reducing the KPA output and re-amplifying the signal through a decent mic-preamp.

Thanks heldal, I did not know about "modern mixers". I have never seen one unable to manage line level. So keyboards are mixed to FOH through DI? LOL
What a waste! Wonder how much they save by avoiding installing a button/knob which reduces the input gain.

As a side note, before writing this response I went around visiting Yamaha's, Mackie's and Behringer's pages just to update my knowledge: I must have been unfortunate, but I was not able to come across any model which had no line input

Do you normally play through a FRFR system with cabs on?
I play through a guitar cabinet, and sometimes when I then try to record something on my pc I get surprised how the complete rig sounds nothing like that setup. The way around this - well, that worked for me, at least - was to try different cabs and work with their parameters. Have you done that?

Quote from viabcroce

As a side note, before writing this response I went around visiting Yamaha's, Mackie's and Behringer's pages just to update my knowledge: I must have been unfortunate, but I was not able to come across any model which had no line input

This may be true for the low-end market, but isn't reflected on the pro-scene. Many mixers have balanced line-level AUX-IN, but that isn't the same as line in. The AUX-ports are more often than not treated different from a channel-strip in the signal-chain. Very few mixers and audio-cards have combined XLR and 1/4" balanced inputs on all channels and maybe even a couple Hi-Z inputs. Behringers X32-series digital mixers have balanced aux-ins, but with somewhat limited functionality compared to the regular channel-strip. Others in the lower-end market likewise. Getting onto the pro-scene with $10k+ digital consoles from Midas, Soundcraft etc you'll find that the audio-engineers who operate these insist on using DI-separation for protection to connect just about anything that doesn't qualify as a microphone. High-end modular systems with digital or analogue stageboxes are usually XLR mic-level only. Some may just be able to handle the KPA at default output-level but that's very near the upper limit, and for quite a few consoles well above what they are comfortable with. It might not matter that much if you're not allowed to plug directly into their console or stagebox anyway. However, lowering the output on the KPA to accomodate a mic-preamp when you can plug directly is probably going to add less noise to the signal than an external DI-box will.

Quote from heldal

This may be true for the low-end market, but isn't reflected one the pro-scene. Many mixers have balanced line-level AUX-IN, but that isn't the same as line in. The AUX-ports are more often than not treated different from a channel-strup in the signal-chain. Very few mixers and audio-cards have combined XLR and 1/4" balanced inputs on all channels and maybe even a couple Hi-Z inputs. Behringers X32-series digital mixers have balanced aux-ins, but with somewhat limited functionality compared to the regular channel-strip. Others in the lower-end market likewise. Getting onto the pro-scene with $10k+ digital consoles from Midas, Soundcraft etc you'll find that the audio-engineers who operate these insist on using DI w/galvanic separation for protection to connect just about anything that doesn't qualify as a microphone. High-end modular systems with digital or analogue stageboxes are usually XLR mic-level only. Some may just be able to handle the KPA at default output-level but that's very near the upper limit.

Interesting, I didn't know that.