Integrated High- and Lowpass without using fx-slots

    How about this: a high and lowpass is a must for an optimised guitar and bass sound (to me at least ;). there is the wah high- and lowpass, which is really cool for that, but it takes up two fx slots. I like to have my high and lowpass locked and constantly on. But with that setup you run out of fx slots pretty fast if you try to get other sounds than a plain rhythm guitar. Are there any dsp-capacities left to integrate both without using the slots? or at least create one high- and lowpass, instead of using two different wah effects for that.


    I'd really love to see that happen.

    Has already been requested about one year ago, among other things like a global multiband eq, and IIRC Kemper team said they were not interested, it was not the goal of the kemper to provide these kind of functionalities.
    I hope they change their mind one of these days :)

    I cannot see the application for highpass or lowpass filters to improve a guitar amp signal.
    Shelving filters are the best choice for treating the low end and high end of the signal.
    Our studio EQ allows for attenuation of 18 dB. Why would you attenuate a frequency band more than that on a guitar amp?

    Because you're trying to sit in a mix and clear the mud, and sometimes it isn't all about the guitarist. Really cutting the bass and some mids as much as is possible, with a single frequency dial is both easier GUI wise and better for frequency space in the mix. And the real big point is to not use up any fx slots on this, so a whole studio eq is just too much. It's added complexity for a demographic more used to a single foot switch and maybe two dials to twiddle.

    I'm with Engineer Kemper on this, i.e. I don't see the use of this. While I could understand the use of such a high and low pass filter while recording, it wouldn't have much purpose in a live setting. There often is some sort of frequency overlap in a live setting, it's not like "cut the frequencies here, this is where bass is" and "cut frequencies here, this is where guitar sits".


    I mean, I haven't seen many low-pass high pass filter stomps myself, other than the EHX knockout and a Behringer thing. And I believe this is also more of an effected sound than straight ahead guitar tone. Is this really of much use in a live situation, or is the request more in the vein of others we've seen where users are looking to have the studio side of things done within the Kemper as well?

    Why not make the studio EQ's high and low bands selectable (LP/Low Shelf and HP/Low Shelf), with slope control in the case of the LP/HP? That's an old request of mine that was dismissed by the Kemper team, but it doesn't hurt to ask again. CK probably hates my guts by now hahaha :D

    There are some rigs that have very strong sub bass frequencies, and lowering the bass on the the tonestack isn't the best solution, also the existent eq fx's cant handle those frequencies either, but i'm listening on studio monitors with a sub, so it's there.


    If you play live in a big pa, then when change to that patch, trouble can happen

    Quote from DanielMoreira

    There are some rigs that have very strong sub bass frequencies, and lowering the bass on the the tonestack isn't the best solution, also the existent eq fx's cant handle those frequencies either, but i'm listening on studio monitors with a sub, so it's there.


    If you play live in a big pa, then when change to that patch, trouble can happen

    Wow, and for a long time I thought I was hearing things, thanks for showing me that I'm not crazy after all. Couldn't agree more, I'd love a tone shaping tool with a somewhat harder knee (like a 18 or 24dB/oct HP) for effectively eliminating those frequencies below a certain point.


    Now here's what I don't get: since guitar amps do *not* reproduce such low frequencies efficiently, why are they present in certain profiles? You can't capture something that isn't there, can you?

    Quote from paults

    That deep bass can be in the actual amp/cab.


    A close-miced Profile can have boosted low frequencies because of the microphone's Proximity Effect, and/or because of a combination of the tone control settings and the frequency response of the speaker cabinet.

    Right you are, also did a little research myself and found this:


    Quote

    2. Isolate The Amp From The Floor
    When recording guitars in small spaces, such as a bedroom or a project studio, the physical connection between the amp and the floor can cause the amp to sympathetically vibrate with the floor. This creates an artificial sense of low end that is often hard to eq out and can make your recording sound muddy. By isolating the amp from the floor with dense insulation or a product such as the Auralex Gamma Pad, the amp can accurately reproduce the low end without vibrating with the room. This can be very useful with dense guitar arrangements where layered guitars can stack up to create a muddy mess in the mix.
    3. Understand The Room
    The sound of the amp is largely impacted by the room that is exists in. Standing waves are created when a loud guitar amp is played in a small space. To minimize the impact of standing waves, angle the guitar amp at 45 degrees to parallel walls. This will help to keep prominent frequencies from building up in the room.
    For more control of the room sound, try draping a heavy blanket over the speaker cabinet. This will eliminate the room sound for microphones close to the cabinet. A second room mic can then be added for control of the room sound in the mix. This creates the possibility for all types of sonic experimentation when it comes time for mix. For example, the room mic can be panned opposite of the close mic. A delay can be added to the room mic for even more spatial distinction.

    Source: http://audio.thedelimagazine.c…rs-secrets-of-the-pros-2/

    Ultimately, I believe the sense of this thread is asking for the ability of controlling a sound's ends (no matter whether with a shelving, a bell, a step EQ) w/o having to waste a slot for an EQ.


    If I were myself, I'd add a low-pass and a high-pass filters to the Amp section, each of which exhibiting two parameters: Freq and Slope, defaulting to flat.


    That's all. Clean, discreete, optional, practical, extremely powerful. Uh, and most wanted. The paradise of any manufacturer/developer :D

    Quote from viabcroce

    Ultimately, I believe the sense of this thread is asking for the ability of controlling a sound's ends (no matter whether with a shelving, a bell, a step EQ) w/o having to waste a slot for an EQ.


    If I were myself, I'd add a low-pass and a high-pass filters to the Amp section, each of which exhibiting two parameters: Freq and Slope, defaulting to flat.


    That's all. Clean, discreete, optional, practical, extremely powerful. Uh, and most wanted. The paradise of any manufacturer/developer :D


    I second this. A small enhancement to the overall possibilities that a studio EQ (eating up a slot) brings.

    Even though the manual doesn’t specifically say this, I consider the high and low shift params in the cab section to be HP and LP filters. They don’t have variable slope, and I’m not sure if the filters have a resonant peak. But if I have a boomy profile that I want to tame, that is the first place I go. Maybe that is where the additional params for slope or Q would fit.


    I would still second the vote to have a more configurable eq stomp, and a more configurable global eq though too. I would love to have more than 2 shelves and 2 peaks in the studio eq, and more control than the 4 fixed freqs in the global eqs (although if you had to fix them, these are just about the perfect freqs IMO). I think stomp is the best place for LP and HP with variable db/oct cuts because the stomp is flexible in terms of pre or post amp.


    BTW, I’m another one of those guys that would love to see an accurate graph of the eq that is being applied, with as much detail as that little LCD display can muster.

    We are aware that a number of rigs have too much low frequency content. This is due to an old flaw in the profiling algorithm. We have a new firmware in the test at the moment, that corrects this flaw. Old profiles will be corrected automatically. However, this correction can be canceled globally, if needed.


    But more about highpass:
    I made a quick test, how a highpass filter would compete to a shelving filter. I chosed a factory rig that I considered to be pretty bassy: S.Mehl 50 Scooped.
    I dialed a Wah Highpass in X and a Studio EQ in MOD for a comparison.
    I turned the Peak parameter all down in the Wah and the gain of the Studio EQ lowshelf to -18 dB. I dialed a Wah frequency and the corresponding lowshelf frequency in seconds.
    The Wah has a slope of 48 dB/oct, the lowshelf 24 dB/oct.
    The result was so similar that it would easily pass a blind test. The lowshelf was as easy to control as the highpass filter. In both cases the residual sound sounded quite unnatural, since attenuating signal portions by such a degree is a severe cut into the natural signal.


    About Lowpass:
    I cannot think of a guitar amp sound, that can be tweaked by a lowpass filter rather than a highshelf filter and still sound somewhat natural. It would be helpful if somebody posts a rig where this is the case.




    The LowShift and HighShift parameters in the cab section are no equalizers, they are not even related.
    Frequencies below the lowest string do well exist. They come from the pick and from subharmonics.
    Lowpass and Highpass filters of steeper slope do not exist in nature and thus not in natural acoustics.
    Pro engineers rarely use or recomment low/highpass filters to fit instruments in the mix by good reasons. Shelving filters are used instead, and they can even be used as low/highpass filters with adjustable attenuation as well for deep tweeks, since decades.


    A boomy profile cannot be equalized correctly by a highpass filter. Boominess is caused by resonances. Resonances must be tamed by a shelving eq or a peak eq. When a highpass or lowpass filter is applied, you will kill those frequencies rather than taming (attenuating) them. Adjaced frequency components (lower or higher than the resonance) are killed as well, even if they were welcome.
    If there is no adjaced welcome frequencies, shelving filters do the job perfectly since 70 years.


    Please forgive me that I am so strict and straight in considering additional functions and parameters. We are planning to expand the Profiler for years by functions and parameters. To do so, we cannot take out features later on, as this would harm the backwards compatibility of sounds. We always consider the wheight, impact and use of every parameter, so that the whole instrument is valuable and straight even in years from now, even when it has gained complexity, which is a consequence of growth. We do not want to create a so-called "parameter grave".
    I even consider to take away convenience parameters such as Distorted Sense, because they do not deeply improve the usability of the Profiler, but have a high potential for misconceptions, as you know.


    My believe is that taming guitar amp sounds by steep slope filters might be the way to go is a misconception.


    Anyway, I like the discussion and I would love to hear clips :)

    Edited once, last by ckemper ().