Ethical questions - uploading profiles from another user

    There is a lot a debate about these questions at the moment, it would be cool to get some guidelines / good practises about these practises.


    I've been uploading lots of stuff :


    1-some profiles I did by myself - 100% owner


    2-some rigs from my own profiles with other's CABs or other CAB I did by myself - 50% owner


    3-some rigs with other's AMPs and with my own CABs ( lots of this type actually and those are amongst the best : see BB KING's Lucille for instance ) - 50% owner


    4-some rigs with other's AMP & CABS but with heavy mods resulting in a VERY different rig - See trainwreck clone LP by Joptunes for instance ( appears under joptunes nameon the RIg Ex ) - 0% owner - Once again this is killer stuff I cannot keep for myself since they are so good.




    When I upload I try to keep track of the original profiler's name AND a short notice (tweaked by waraba) but I'm not 100% liable during the tagging



    In some cases I did upload some rigs I don't own under MY name - these rigs are clearly not mine , but they are a very good contribution to the community effort - I will never upload something I don't like or use myself ( except in the case I'm in a conservative mood )


    Its a bit strange to upload someone else's rigs under his name ( like the one from joptunes I did ) that's why I did add 'LP mod by wara' in the tags, but it appears under his name on the Rig Ex.


    I think we got to keep this tolerance to uploading other's people work , BUT : Keep track of the original profiler AND add some tags about the mods / tweaks added with the modder's name.



    my 2 cts on this question ...

    Yep I admit being on the verge of rules but that I would feel like a moron not to upload such fantastic rigs for the community and just keep them for myself


    I never ran into problems with the original profilers since I did these uploads - we even have a mutual respect with M-pausio / Hell-G / Joptunes & others

    Quote from waraba

    Yep I admit being on the verge of rules but that I would feel like a moron not to upload such fantastic rigs for the community and just keep them for myself


    I never ran into problems with the original profilers since I did these uploads - we even have a mutual respect with M-pausio / Hell-G / Joptunes & others


    I totally agree with this. I see no problem with anyone modifying profiles that I upload or if I upload someone else's stuff that I've modified - provided that 1) it is a free profile originally uploaded to the exchange, and 2) respect is given to the original author by some mention of their credit in the tags. I also think that if the original profile is obtained freely and outside of the rig exchange, consent should be granted by the originator before uploading the modified version. If consent is granted, the tags should pretty much remain the same other than some credit to note who modified the origin (but the original author's name should remain somewhere in the tags).

    "Tone is in the fingers" is not a necessary response to anything that I might type on any internet forum threads. Thank you.

    I agree. We should check whether kemper were thinking of this scenario with their prohibition, or were rather thinking of people uploading others' profiles on their name...

    Quote from viabcroce

    I agree. We should check whether kemper were thinking of this scenario with their prohibition, or were rather thinking of people uploading others' profiles on their name...


    exactly. Because overall this seems like a scenario where the prohibition would actually "harm" the community more than it would serve it.

    Quote from viabcroce

    I agree. We should check whether kemper were thinking of this scenario with their prohibition, or were rather thinking of people uploading others' profiles on their name...


    I agree.
    And as I said elsewhere (New Whitesnake "Is This Love" rigs!), the terms and conditions are not 100% free of speculation/ interpretation.


    According to the terms of use of RE (that we as RE users have acknowledged once) we would only be allowed to upload rigs that we have profiled ourselves when we interpret the AND as inclusive. If 'and' is interpreted as 'OR' which is also imaginable to me (RE is there for loading up rigs and profiles and you must be the author of the rigs and profiles that you load up) then you'd be allowed to upload rigs that you tweaked yourself but that were profiled by someone else.

    I don't think the rules leave any room for interpretation.


    "AND" is not "OR".



    It's not far fetched to think most people wouldn't mind if their cabs/amps end up on other tweaked profiles, since the "author" is also mentioned in both elements.


    Still, I'm wouldn't be happy if someone else made stuff available that has elements I created, especially if not being asked before.
    If it's mentioned somewhere yeah why not, but how many people really take a look at the amp/cab to see the author?
    If it's not mentioned anywhere else someone could still "adorn himself with borrowed plumes"


    But to be frank, sitting there twisting a few knobs and combining different stuff isn't nearly as much work as setting up a rig and profiling.
    Sorry to say that, but a lot more work goes into that than just altering something that has been there to begin with.


    To spin the wheel a bit further: is it ok to tweak a tweaked profike and re-upload it again? Not a lot of use to have 10,000 personalized versions of the same root tone around imo.
    Every player should be able to tweak the tone to HIS needs himself anyway.

    Quote from Ingolf

    According to the terms of use of RE (that we as RE users have acknowledged once) we would only be allowed to upload rigs that we have profiled ourselves when we interpret the AND as inclusive. If 'and' is interpreted as 'OR' which is also imaginable to me (RE is there for loading up rigs and profiles and you must be the author of the rigs and profiles that you load up) then you'd be allowed to upload rigs that you tweaked yourself but that were profiled by someone else.


    "OR" is the right interpretation also for me ;) ...
    I'm sure that we could continue to upload tweaked rig with our name of an amp/profile of someone else without any problem. This is the reason why we have 3 different author's name reported in the rig. Rig, Amp and Cab Author are different just for this reason, so if you maintein the correct tagging I believe we can have no issue at all.

    Quote from Mago

    But to be frank, sitting there twisting a few knobs and combining different stuff isn't nearly as much work as setting up a rig and profiling.
    Sorry to say that, but a lot more work goes into that than just altering something that has been there to begin with.


    OK, just different opinion probably because we have different experience. I can say infact, the opposite, it is more easy to create a single profile than create a Tone Rig for a complex song, and this second part of the job can need hours of work and refining...
    So, as you can see, it depends from anyone experiences. I repeat myself, two tag exist and two author can work together for a great final result, we can mention both, so why not? Where is the problem?
    And, personally I only can be gratified if someone use my profile for a great tweaked rig and report here my name and his name...

    Timo of Kemper has written the following in another thread:


    Quote from timo

    One shall not change the author tag for profiles. Therefore, RM prevents any mass editing of those tags.
    Adding effects to a rig or modifying stack parameters can make it something new,but at least the actual profile amp/cab name and author should always be preserved.


    To change the author and even the amp name (plus pretending having profiled it themselves) to cover: it is plagiarism IMHO.


    I think this clarifies it.
    AND can be interpreted as OR in the semantic context of the terms of use of RE.
    Don't change the authorship of a profile.
    Give credit where credit is due.

    Quote from Maurizio70


    OK, just different opinion probably because we have different experience. I can say infact, the opposite, it is more easy to create a single profile than create a Tone Rig for a complex song, and this second part of the job can need hours of work and refining...
    So, as you can see, it depends from anyone experiences. I repeat myself, two tag exist and two author can work together for a great final result, we can mention both, so why not? Where is the problem?
    And, personally I only can be gratified if someone use my profile for a great tweaked rig and report here my name and his name...



    Yeah that is true, it can be a lot of work to get all the FX etc right, I didn't think about that!
    But trying to get the tone right at the source (if you have the same/similar equipment available) can take even more time.


    I think the issue is that it's not clarified how to go about the author question. Where to mention it etc...if it was clear ok, but all of this is a huge gray zone as of now.
    If Kemper would clear that up with a new set of guidlines/rules then that would take care of most of the issues.



    Ingolf, I still don't think that it's up to debate in that context.
    If someone in a music shop tells you you can take home this guitar OR or that other guitar, and you take both I also don't think he would argue with you about the semantics ;)

    Here's an answer from G String that clarifies the topic 100%. ;)


    Quote from G String

    the AND means that the uploader needs to be the author of both. but we are not totally strict in this regards. in my personal opinion, deriving a rig from two others, tweaking it and uploading it is okay under two conditions:


    - the new creation must be worth the upload. "worth" in terms of the community really benefits from it because the blend is good enough to stand out.
    - the author info of at least the profile (amp) and the cab have not been edited.


    in a way it is up to you all. the more redundant trash we all find in rig exchange, the longer it will take us to dig out the crown jewels. the more you VOTE for rigs, the the better this indicator becomes.
    gs


    Makes perfect sense to me.

    Quote from Mago

    Yeah that is true, it can be a lot of work to get all the FX etc right, I didn't think about that!
    But trying to get the tone right at the source (if you have the same/similar equipment available) can take even more time.

    Yes, exactly, both "worlds" can be simple or complex/time consuming depending on the various cases... so, that's why probably mention all the relatives authors in the tags (Rig, Amp, Cab) it is the right way to go... ;)

    Quote from Ingolf

    - the new creation must be worth the upload. "worth" in terms of the community really benefits from it because the blend is good enough to stand out.
    - the author info of at least the profile (amp) and the cab have not been edited.


    seems clear,if everyone knows it and sticks to it. and personally i think that the rig exchange should be split into 2 sections : 1st Profiles 2nd User Rigs .

    Quote from londonjeepster


    seems clear,if everyone knows it and sticks to it. and personally i think that the rig exchange should be split into 2 sections : 1st Profiles 2nd User Rigs .


    Yes, I agree.


    Although when searching you can already flag profiles, rigs, cabs, authors.

    G-String made it clear on the Whitesnake thread that the terms and conditions technically forbids re-uploading tweaked profiles of others, but they are not actively policing this unless it causes actual issues, like in KB's case. I think it's the right policy.

    IMO you should not be able to change the author's name if it doesn't match the name registered into your Kemper.
    In order to secure the process the author's name should be linked with the encrypted MAC address of the Kemper.(and the MAC address should be checked too)