Recording multiple tracks at a time - Discovery?!

Geraldo7 · Nov 28th 2014

To make a long story short. I have made up a riff and if you want to you can hear it here. I usually record for weeks now 4 tracks simutaneously. This has many advantages.
Here is how i do it. I place a t-piece between my guitar and two cables. Cable one goes to my boosted plexi, cable 2 goes to my KPA. From the Kemper i record 3 tracks.
The wet and clean via SPDIF and another "wet" form the monitor out. This way i have 4 rhythm guitars or even solo gits. Advanatges:

No more problem with tightness. I usually play heavy music rather tight, nevertheless. this saves me doubling any rhythm guitars.
I can pan the three wet guitars instantly LCR, as recommended by the pros
I can keep the clean track and reamp later {if necessary} or replace all of the tracks with reamped ones.
The blend of real amp with profile sounds somehow, i dont know smoother, yes that is the word smoother, and if this is what you want, this is how you get it: buy a t-piece!

whadaya think? two pennies for your thoughts! and if u wanna hear it, the link above is valid. cheers

Michael_dk · Nov 28th 2014

Doubling guitars (as in double-tracking, as in separate performances) add thickness.

Copy-pasting adds volume ONLY.

Two amps playing the same performance (i.e. only one recording) adds "something" compared to just the one amp. Important to note is this: that "something" may very well be BAD rather than GOOD. It take deliberate consideration in choosing the tone of each amp to compliment each other than than detract from each other.

If one of those tracks are not in perfect time (as when one track goes through an actual amp and one track goes through the Kemper), you introduce phasing issues.

My conclusion: double tracking is still the way to go

Michael_dk · Nov 28th 2014

But good idea to record the DI along with the wet track. You can use that to add a second amp profile on top later, and "choose wisely".

I'm not saying that layering the amped cab with the KPA is necessarily a bad thing - it is just NOT a replacement for double tracking, and it requires some consideration and likely some time alignment.

Ingolf · Nov 28th 2014

Quote from Michael_dk

Doubling guitars (as in double-tracking, as in separate performances) add thickness.

Copy-pasting adds volume ONLY.

Two amps playing the same performance (i.e. only one recording) adds "something" compared to just the one amp. Important to note is this: that "something" may very well be BAD rather than GOOD. It take deliberate consideration in choosing the tone of each amp to compliment each other than than detract from each other.

If one of those tracks are not in perfect time (as when one track goes through an actual amp and one track goes through the Kemper), you introduce phasing issues.

My conclusion: double tracking is still the way to go

Display More

Words of wisdom!

Michael_dk · Nov 28th 2014

Some further apparent wisdom ;-):

Not everything needs to be exactly the same when laying down another track Sometimes it's way better (i.e. more effective in terms of musical impact) to lay down a different part which compliments the first one. When doing so, go for a different sound. That might mean a different amp, different pickup, different guitar, or played higher on the neck. Or a combination of some or all of these. The different sound helps distinguish between the parts. They should still COMPLIMENT each other.

There's a time and a place for each

Geraldo7 · Nov 29th 2014

Okay. But see: Joe Bonamassa has 6 amps behind him. One of two Mars Jubilees is always on. This one gets mixed either with a colleague of his - the second jubilee, 2 dumbles
{aka: three ampa at one time} or with the two VanWeeldens (=3 amps at the time). He plays them simultaneously and he is famous for his good sound. In fact i have seen him live with a similiar setting and it was sonic heaven. I do not hear - for the love of god - the phasing issues, but i guess could differentiate in a blindfoldtest those two versions of mine.
Exactly because those two amps, one virtual (a KIPR file of 4K size) and one real complement each other, but that is just me. only my 2 cents.

cu

Deadlightstudio · Nov 29th 2014

aaah now we now your phase issue from the other post...
If you want 4 tracks...you have to record them 4 times.
When i do..i usally also pan them different
For example 1 on L100, 2 on L80 (3-4db lower in the mix), 3 R100, 4 R80 (also 3-4db lower)
There are many ways..but a lot people do it that way

that what Bonamassa does..is the same as blending mics..that works..sure but its still 1 guitar and it can still cause phase issues.
The best way to get away from phase issues is to search the spot where on mic cancels the other mic in phase completly..than switch the phase of 2nd mic - done.
When recording multiple guitars..you will not have that problem usually

WyldStallyns · Nov 29th 2014

Someone once said to me "always record two mono tracks simultaneously for every guitar, but pan left and right" or something like that

idk if that helps...w/e lol

paults · Nov 29th 2014

Quote from Geraldo7

whadaya think? two pennies for your thoughts!

I think you have discovered the way to get the sound you want, and that is a very good thing

I think the advise about using double tracking for a different sound and to avoid possible phasing issues is also valid

Hmmm.....That's two thoughts.... You owe me four pennies!

Deadlightstudio · Nov 29th 2014

Quote from WyldStallyns

Someone once said to me "always record two mono tracks simultaneously for every guitar, but pan left and right" or something like that

idk if that helps...w/e lol

if you do that you will have 1 mono track in the middle only double that loud

Lokasenna · Nov 29th 2014

Quote from WyldStallyns

">

Someone once said to me "always record two mono tracks simultaneously for every guitar, but pan left and right" or something like that

idk if that helps...w/e lol

It helps if you want to hear one guitar, louder, in the center of your mix, because that's all it does.

Stereo/thickness/bigness happens when you have two or more tracks that are NOT identical. This could be the same performance through two amps, two performances through the same amp, etc. The more different they are (two performances through two different amps?), the wider your sound will be. Using multiple amps together, like Bonamassa's massive rig, lets you blend and EQ them to take the good-sounding bits from each and stick them into one tone that sounds like the hand of God. Panning them will help separate the tiny (seriously, teeny tiny) differences in each amp's distortion and coloring, but you probably won't get the same sense of size and space as two players playing together.

A fast and easy way to get real double-tracking is to record one take of your song and then use a copy of Verse B as your second take on Verse A, a copy of Verse A as your second take on Verse B, Chorus A to double Chorus B, etc. As long as you have two "repeats" of a given riff or section (or four, for sexy heavy metal quadtracking), and your playing is pretty tight, you're golden.

Deadlightstudio · Nov 29th 2014

and another tip...a big guitar tone is because of a killer Bass tone...without a killer bass tone - the best profile in the world will sound weak in a mix.
Im talking about Distorted tones...clean is a different world

WyldStallyns · Nov 29th 2014

Quote from Deadlightstudio

if you do that you will have 1 mono track in the middle only double that loud

Lars, my friend, why do you persist in nitpicking my ideas?! Lol I mean suit pan to your mixing needs

check "the systemic mixing guide"

Deadlightstudio · Nov 29th 2014

i dont get what you mean maybe some language problem

i have that, i have read it often

Michael_dk · Nov 29th 2014

Quote from WyldStallyns

Lars, my friend, why do you persist in nitpicking my ideas?! Lol I mean suit pan to your mixing needs

check "the systemic mixing guide"

If they are the same performacne through the same amp, you get a mono result no matter how you pan and level them. The placement of that mono track might not be in the middle, but it's still basically a mono track result.

Law of nature

Ingolf · Nov 29th 2014

My 2 cents: In my sound value system which is based in the 70's and early 80's NOTHING beats a performance that is played twice by the same player.

Nothing comes close to the liveliness that is achieved by recording this way.

nightlight · Nov 29th 2014

Try double-tracking or quad-tracking, Geraldo. I'm sure you'll find it even better than duplicating a track, which is pretty much what you're doing right now. Involves a bit more effort, but the result is better guitars in a mix. I'm guilty of duplicating tracks myself often, because I still haven't got to a stage where my drum performances are convincing, largely due to the technology I use. Crap drums = crap mix. In fact, crap anything compromises a mix.

Sadly, Black Friday came and went without the stuff I'm interested in being on sale, plus had some other considerations to take into account as well

lightbox · Nov 29th 2014

Quote from Geraldo7

... 2 dumbles ...

Completely unrelated to the topic but maybe interesting to know if you have some money left after Black Friday.
Joe is selling both of his Dumbles:
https://reverb.com/item/364494…pecial-w-dumbleator-black
https://reverb.com/item/364482…e-overdrive-special-black

Cheers
Martin

Geraldo7 · Nov 29th 2014

{Goodness, some much input, i woke the sleeping giant.}
First things first. Thank you so much for discussing this and sharing your knowledge and opinions here.

Just a few comments and ponderings, i cannot quote anyone directly here, if i did, the post would be a whole page long.

paults your post is my favourite, because it has this: well, it is round but from the other side it seems to be square attitude, which i like. Anyone
know about quantum mechanics? i love the SOUND i am getting this way. period. i probably will have to check phasing issues, ofcourse. it is work in progress.
Lokasenna @Ingolf and others. I WILL record it again with the same system using two amps but playing it three times and then we will listen to it again in the link your music section,okay?
All Panning LCR is a good idea, if you want to have a professional mix, so not necessarily valid for me, but maybe for some of you doing commercials. Panning left-right-center has a few advantages. Where are people most commonly listening to records? On the radio in their car (me!), in a club, a bar or a disco. So most of them will not be in the center between the speakers, but anywhere. Standing or sitting before the left speaker or 20 meters away. So most of the informations of panning 50% to left or right get lost, does it not? The new record of Bonamassa is made this way and even if i sit at the wheel before the left speaker, LCR is valid, because left is left and right is right and middle is middle, only that i hear the rhythm on the left a little louder than the melody guitar on the right, but the solo git is louder anyway. so it is perfect! Maybe Shirley produces for car drivers?
Joe mixes the sounds, but no panning that's right just adding thickness with 2 different amp charcters, whether played twice or thrice or not, i cannot decide.
I will try any of this. Thanks again. I am sure i forgot some good ideas. Sorry for that. cheers
Deadlightstudio how do you achieve a "killer bass sound"? and where. on the bass track or guitar track?
Last, but not least. @lightbox i knew this already. why is JB selling the Dumbles. In the notes of his last record but one he said that they belong to friends of his and he gave them credit for lending it. What happenned? Too expensive even for Mr. GAS himself?

Deadlightstudio · Nov 29th 2014

Remember..when you listen to Radio...the music will always be mono

Killer Bass sound? Here you go: http://youtu.be/N3iwNLIgtK0?list=UU-f76NUQN5M-Z0cd0MOP5xw

http://www.systematicproductions.com/mixing-guide.htm

Share