A Little bummed out.

    Quote from sugarlou

    I'm not trying to replicate the Redplate per se. Just trying to get closer to what I'm hearing in the cans. There's qualities there that are missing through either cab. I haven't placed an EQ altering devices in the stomp slots and frankly I don't know what the x slot means but I'm reading this at work. The KPA isn't in front of me. I'll look into it after work.


    Hi Sugarlou,


    The "X" slot is one of the "free" effects slot in the 4-effect blocks after the Stack section (post-amp). The other three are constrained, because the Mod slot only allows Modulation effects, and of course the Delay and Reverb slots only allow those effects. However, with the "X" slot, you are free to choose any stomp effect, including EQs. The difference being, of course, that this effect slot will be after the amp section, so that EQ effects will have a different influence on your tone than if the same effect is placed before the amp / stack section, in the A through D Stomp slots.


    Cheers,
    John

    Sugarlou, I actually had started writing this post before reading your most recent reply, in which you explained that your goal wasn't necessarily to replicate your Redplate amp. So, this particular post may not be relevant for you...but since I already wrote it, I thought I would post it here, anyway. I am hoping And44 might be able to reply with his thoughts, as his KPA profiling knowledge and experience is most welcome and appreciated.


    ----------------------


    Quote from and44

    Well you cant really compare the real redplate amp, with the Kemper + CLR. - your hearing the source amp versus the recorded source amp, tonally they will sound very different


    If however you miced the amp the same way as the profile.. then listend to both, the test would be more accurate.. better still, mic the amp yourself then profile it the way you like it.


    Redplate amps are amazing btw. - and they can be troubslsome to replicate as redplate are forever changing (inconsistencies).


    Hi Andy,


    I am not familiar with RedPlate Amps, although I have certainly heard of them and their excellent reputation. So, if he were to profile his Redplate, wouldn't it be ideal for him to first make a Direct Profile, and then make a Studio Profile to catch the Redplate's cab. Then, he can Merge them. If Sugarlou has a Redplate combo (rather than head + cab), perhaps it has a Speaker Out connection from chassis to the combo's speaker.


    Yes, he will need to get an appropriate DI box, but once he has that, then he has the following advantages...


    He will have captured an accurate representation of the Redplate's amp section, including the impedance influence and interactions between the Redplate's amp's and OT with cab, but without the cabinet tone contribution in the Direct profile. Once Merged, he know has fantastic flexibility in working with his KPA + CLR combination. If the Redplate's cabinet does not "work" or play well with the CLR, then Sugarlou can accurately remove it from the profile, and audition any number of other types of cabinets (from Merged profiles) with his CLR. From the growing population of discrete cabinet profiles, there is bound to be at least one that stands out and just "gets it on" with his CLR. I mean, it could be his original Redplate's speaker cab (I assume it is a combo), but at least with making a Direct + Studio Profile followed by Merging, he has the ability to accurately separate the original cab and then mix and match.


    Even better -- he may not even have to worry about mic'ing his Redplate and making a Studio Profile. I notice that the newest factory Merged Profile Pack (included in latest Firmware) includes a couple of Merged profiles made by you (TAF), of a RedPlate CDS3. That model is a 1x12 combo with a Celestion V30 speaker. Again, not sure what specific Redplate model Sugarlou has, but if involves a 1x12 with a Celestion V30 --> BOOM! :D He may be in business. The more challenging task of making a decent Studio profile, with all the intricate mic'ing considerations that are involved, might be completely eliminated.

    Edited 2 times, last by Tritium ().

    Quote from Tritium

    ....the Mod slot only allows Modulation effects


    I've been putting clean boost presets in the MOD position and it works fine.

    The key to everything is patience.
    You get the chicken by hatching the egg, not by smashing it.
    -- Arnold H. Glasow


    If it doesn't produce results, don't do it.

    -- Me

    Like 1

    I have a Tweedy Drive combo with a celestion heritage 12. But again I'm not trying to recreate the amp. I own it already. I'm more concerned with getting the cab sound closer to the headphone tones. There's a snap and sizzle to them that neither cab recreates. I'm surprised no one has said to try a DI profile till now. I'll admit I'm more than slightly confused by what merged means and why I would even want the cab to be profiled if I'm already using a cab. In the case of a DI profile I'm assuming I'd use the Bogner /EVM

    Quote from sugarlou

    I have a Tweedy Drive combo with a celestion heritage 12. But again I'm not trying to recreate the amp. I own it already. I'm more concerned with getting the cab sound closer to the headphone tones. There's a snap and sizzle to them that neither cab recreates. I'm surprised no one has said to try a DI profile till now. I'll admit I'm more than slightly confused by what merged means and why I would even want the cab to be profiled if I'm already using a cab. In the case of a DI profile I'm assuming I'd use the Bogner /EVM


    Hi Sugarlou,


    Indeed, that is what you will want to try. That is, making a Direct Profile of your Redplate Tweedy Drive. The only potential complication is that it is a combo, and on many combos, the poweramp output is hardwired to the speaker in the combo. That will make it a bit more challenging to make a Direct profile. However, I just looked on the Redplate site and pulled up the Tweedy Drive User Manual. It looks like you are in business! It looks as if the back panel of the Tweedy Drive has a physical jack connection between it's poweramp output and the speaker, which would be the one labeled "MAIN". During a Direct Profiling process (and you will want to carefully read the Kemper manual called "Kemper Profiling Guide"), you will unplug the cable from the "Main" jack to the internal speaker. Here is where the DI box comes in. You need an appropriate DI box which has both a Line Out as well as a Speaker Bypass / Thru Output. You connect a SPEAKER cable between the back of your RedPlate's MAIN jack to the input of the DI box's Speaker Input. From the DI box's outputs, you use another SPEAKER cable to connect the DI box's Speaker Bypass / Thru Output back to the Redplate's MAIN jack. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY IMPORTANT, as you cannot run your Redplate without having it connected to the appropriate speaker (load). The DI Box's LINE OUT is connected back to the KPA's RETURN input. On the front end, you simply connect your guitar to the KPA's Input, and connect the KPA's DIRECT OUTPUT/SEND to the front input of your Redplate. Voila -- begin the profiling process. Now, since you have made a Direct Profile, you don't necessarily have to also make a Studio Profile of your same set-up, which involves the mic'ing of your combo.


    However, to answer your question as to what this whole Direct -vs- Studio -vs- Merged Profiles business is about, allow me to continue.


    Technically, this is what a MERGED Profile is. It consists of first making a Direct Profile (no cabinet tone is incorporated into the signal process), which completely separates the amp profile from any tone contribution of a cabinet. Then, without changing anything on the front controls of your amp, you immediately make a normal Studio profile, by physically mic'ing the amp/cab system. Then, you have one Direct profile and one Studio profile of the exact same amp settings. Finally, you do the MERGE process, which combines them together. The difference, here, is that with a Merged Profile, the KPA can now easily and accurately separate the amp profile from the cabinet profile. The benefit of this, is that the KPA does not need to use it's CabDriver algorithm to calculate and make an optimized approximation of how to separate the amp section from the cabinet section. This occurs on all Studio profiles (which are the vast majority of the KPA profile population), when you disable the "Cab" section. The CabDriver algorithm works very, very well, and is entirely satisfactory for most cases. However, with new Direct Profiling and the Merge capability, the Kemper now has the capability to give you the actual raw amp profile, separate from any cabinet contribution, in which no approximations are made. It is 100% accurate.


    To bring this all back to where it may benefit and apply to your case...you don't need to worry about capturing the cabinet section of your Redplate. You can simply make a Direct profile of your Redplate on your KPA, and use that with your physical 1x12 Bogner cab and separate SS power amplifier. OR, you can COPY the Cabinet section from any pre-existing Merged profile (49 are available in the new Factory firmware), and then pull up the Direct profile of your Redplate. You will now see an option to MERGE this copied Cabinet with the Direct Profile of your Redplate. This allows you to now use your KPA with your Atomic CLR, and with a little effort and work, duplicate the sound of your Tweedy Drive combo using your KPA / CLR rig. Again, I recognize this is not your ultimate goal...but I am using this as an example to best explain differences between the Direct -- Studio -- Merged profiles, and how these capabilities can be applied and used to advantage, by any KPA user.

    Edited 3 times, last by Tritium ().

    Like 5

    Wow that really cleared things up! I get it . Id like to try someone else DI amp through my cab. Im afraid to do the update.


    I heard all kinds of problems w/ it.


    Have they been resolved?

    I'm no KPA expert yet, but I'd head to the recent tutorials Kemper put out re: Outputs & tweak a Profile you like for starters. Fender Deluxe Reverb with added enhancement of the profile through tweaking the outputs might give you a better single cab performance?

    I'm surprised noone has yet mentioned the "space"parameter that is most probably ON when hearing through the headphones. If that is the case, then comparing the headphones out to the main out may be a loosing battle as ,you know, the space effect makes the sound sort of..."dual tracked" which in most cases will seem to sound better.

    Quote from theBox

    I'm surprised noone has yet mentioned the "space"parameter that is most probably ON when hearing through the headphones. If that is the case, then comparing the speaker out to the main out may be a loosing battle as ,you know, the space effect makes the sound sort of..."dual tracked" which in most cases will seem to sound better.


    TheBox, that is another good point and something Sugarlou can check out. I am not at my Kemper at the moment, and I would have assumed that the Space effect parameter would be "off" by default...requiring a conscious decision to enable it. But in any case, something to look into.


    Cheers,
    John

    I'm a little confused here.


    You're using the wrong poweramp (tubes) and you're getting told to adjust the Space Parameter to make the poweramp/cab sound like the headphone tone? :)


    How many guys here actually use a SS poweramp with their Kempers into a Cabinet or the built in Class D Kemper poweramp?

    These rumors about 3.x simply won't die.
    There's nothing wrong. There were a couple of serious issues involving profiling (not playing) but these too have long since been resolved.


    Space parameter, as Guitartone implies, is meant to emulate the sound of a speaker over headphones, not the other way around.
    If you've selected your profiles on headphones, you're used to getting a direct, on-axis sound with little diffusion.
    To emulate this, try getting your CLR to ear level, facing you directly. Crank the 'presence', maybe cut some low-end.
    Reverb 'mix' settings will also need to be increased.


    Fact is, heapdhones are a different medium - music sounds way different on speakers vs. headphones just the same, but the presence of other instruments makes the differences less of an issue.
    You'll never make them sound identical, but you can learn the differences between your particular bits of gear well enough to get them close.

    "But dignity is difficult to maintain
    stamina requires constant upkeep
    repetition is boring
    and you pay for grace."

    Quote from Guitartone

    I'm a little confused here.


    You're using the wrong poweramp (tubes) and you're getting told to adjust the Space Parameter to make the poweramp/cab sound like the headphone tone? :)


    How many guys here actually use a SS poweramp with their Kempers into a Cabinet or the built in Class D Kemper poweramp?


    Guitartone, i get the feeling that you COMPLETELY misunderstood my post. ;)


    edit: It must have been my fault though, cause I wrote "speaker" instead of "headphones". Sorry, I corrected it.

    (Im using a SS power amp to the Bogner with cab sim off.)


    I realize the differences between headphones and cabs.Im not trying to replicate the space and stereo feel of the cans. What Im saying is theres a quality in the attack and reaction to the guitar notes in the headphones thats missing in the cab.


    Hard to explain what that quality is exactly. Its a brightness but more than that the notes have some crispness that I can't get to the cab without it becoming too trebly. The notes in the headphone out have some "hair" around them for lack of a better term.


    Initially I thought "well just add highs or presence but that didn't achieve what I wanted.


    Ill keep at it.

    One thing you could try is to A/B between the headphone sound you like and the cabinets. That'll help you choose the appropriate EQ. At the same time, remember the Fletcher-Munson effect, as others have mentioned. One more thing to try is linking headphone space to your other outputs, this might be what you're missing when you audition your cabs.

    I have to say, I am LOVING merged profiles with a power map and 2x12 guitar cab. Best of both worlds for me. Some would say I am doing it wrong but a mate sent me his Fryette Powerstation to demo. I will compare it to my ISP Stealth sold state power amp to see how they compare. The Fryette is a load box with built-in 50 watt 6L6 power section. I am interested to hear how much "tube coloration" actually happens and if it drastically affects the tone I am getting on-stage.


    I just sold my 1x12 cab as it really was not thick enough and the FRFR experience didn;t feel right either. That extra chunk from the oversized 2x12 is just great and feel more like what Ia m used to when gigging.