Weird that no-one mentioned it yet...

    Quote from mullassiff

    Is it really that hard to aknowledge that some people actually prefer the Axe-Fx over the Kemper?
    That some people ( by tonematching or tweaking ) find the Axe-Fx to be more accurate?
    That your truth and facts might not be the universal answer?
    I know for a fact that some people find both units amazing and extremely accurate.
    Both units have their strengths and weaknesses, Some like blonds some like browns.
    Acceptance is the first step.


    Many guitar players are getting amazing tones comparable to AXE FXII using their POD HDs, that's not questionable, but that doesn't mean accurate modeling. Besides some don't care about accuracy, they just want to be able to get good tones. So yes acceptance is the first step that AXE FXII is not intended to be an accurate modeler.


    I know I keep repeating my self, but it's puzzling that you don't find it suspect that Fractal doesn't show the amps they modeled on their website or have comparable videos of what they modeled.


    I'm sorry to say it, but the mere mention of "tone match" in comparison with Kemper Profiling is so gullible and no different than someone saying that they prefer their horse and buggy over a jet aircraft because eventually it will get them from point A to point B regardless of the time and effort and what's worse, they're willing to pay the price of a Jet aircraft to get their beloved horse and buggy!


    When one or more of the Fractal trolls come here to stir the pot, they get what they deserve.
    If you think your gear is the best choice for you, why would you go to a competitor's forum
    and cause trouble? They'll be back with more...they've learned well from Scott and Cliff.

    The key to everything is patience.
    You get the chicken by hatching the egg, not by smashing it.
    -- Arnold H. Glasow


    If it doesn't produce results, don't do it.

    -- Me

    Too bad this guy didn't have Dean to advise him before he bought this. He must have fallen for the message board hype. Hurry Dean call this guy and tell him what a fool he and his crew were for letting this happen:


    https://instagram.com/p/jD4imrks68/

    While you're at it call Geddy Lee, he started touring recently with the Axe as his bass amp. He could have saved money and bought a Pod. Alex Lifeson has 3 Axe's. What a waste. Please Dean, help these morons see the truth as you have posted it here.

    I think it is unfortunate that a few Kemper owners and a few Axe owners find the need to insult and attack the owners of other products.


    Not only does it make everyone who owns either of the products look bad, I can't help but think that if they would have chosen a different product than the one they currently own, they would be aiming their divisive language squarely at the owners of their current gear.



    Perhaps someone should start a discussion page called digitalguitargeardeathmatch.com ( for people who LIKE that sort of thing)

    Quote from skankenstein

    Too bad this guy didn't have Dean to advise him before he bought this. He must have fallen for the message board hype. Hurry Dean call this guy and tell him what a fool he and his crew were for letting this happen:


    https://instagram.com/p/jD4imrks68/


    While you're at it call Geddy Lee, he started touring recently with the Axe as his bass amp. He could have saved money and bought a Pod. Alex Lifeson has 3 Axe's. What a waste. Please Dean, help these morons see the truth as you have posted it here.


    Dean owns the Kemper and he's sharing with others who bought the same thing.


    Dean has a few line 6 products, few Blackstar, Marshalls, but doesn't mention the Kemper in those websites. Dean no longer bothers with public forums that are fanboy clubs for specific products.


    All I have to say, you're here in the Kemper website and you don't own one but the community welcomes you despite your misconduct and offensive name/language.


    You owe it to yourself to try the Kemper, but please don't ever become a fan boy of the Kemper the same way you are with the AXE FX..


    When you finally will be able to try first hand what accurate modeling is all about, please only share your excitement here in this website or other public forums or youtube but not at Fractal website or the Gearpage (both are run by AXE FX fan clubs)


    You will be able to Profile one of your amps or Preamps and hear and compare; ... the magic that has become a reality, not paper schematics that were brought to life in a format of what some engineer thinks the amp should sound like (might be good, but accurate it isn't)
    .

    Edited 3 times, last by Dean_R ().

    There are so many modelers out there , Helix ,Amplifier ,Yamaha THR ,Theta DSPpro, Two Notes , Eleven Rack , you name-it , but it is always between Fractal and Kemper ...

    Keep Rocking !

    Multi-pronged personal attacks issued by gang of axe-grinding(!) infiltrators is what I'm seeing here, if I'm not mistaken.


    Of course, I could be wrong, as I suggested earlier when I invited skankenstein to join the civility party before the growing mountain of evidence that he and his ilk aren't capable of rational, logical debate, reached a point where the conclusion I resisted arriving at became ineluctable.


    The likelihood that I am, however, diminishes with every barb issued by said "crew", which is unfortunate, not only because I find my faith in mankind challenged by every new level of spite attained by said venom-spitting, but because each of these "new heights" tends to merely serve as a marker for the next round of circularity where this debate is concerned.


    Dean's copped a fair amount of criticism for alleged condescension, but from where I'm sitting his statements of facts as he saw them were in no way intended to imply inferiority on the parts of those he directed them towards. Rather, and if anything, he suggested that ignorance, in the truest sense of the word, was to blame. To be clear, the term "ignorance", although defined these days as being a "lack of knowledge or information", which is in fact a simplified / dumbed-down description, encompasses the concept of willingly refusing to consider facts or information of any type. To ignore is to willingly wear blinkers; ignorance is the state attained through said action. Further to this, Dean hasn't succumbed to the gutter tactic of personal attack.


    One might say that aspects of this debate resemble a typical exchange between a parent and petulant offspring, or a teacher and a reprobate student, and in this regard alone, the interplay is IMHO fascinating.


    One might conclude from what I've written that I'm in some way frustrated by the antics in this thread. Quite the contrary - to me, this is entertainment of the highest order, so please, carry on, folks!

    Quote from dpavel

    There are so many modelers out there , Helix ,Amplifier ,Yamaha THR ,Theta DSPpro, Two Notes , Eleven Rack , you name-it , but it is always between Fractal and Kemper ...


    Kemper is not modeler... Two Notes is just cabinet modeler/loadbox, you can't stand it amongst others

    Quote from dpavel


    Correct ; Thanks ;)


    Incorrect - Thanks!


    If you think it doesn't model then I guess it must have tubes and output transformers and speaker coils and cones in it.


    if it doesn't have those items inside it and it is replicating the sound of those items then by definition it is modeling those items!

    Quote from Frodebro

    Indeed. Telling Fractal owners that they bought the wrong product because they didn't know any better really doesn't seem like a good idea, ya know? If somebody is happy with their gear, that's all that matters. Doesn't matter if it's a KPA, an Axe-FX, a Helix, or a freaking Peavey Bandit. If they're happy with it, then they made the right decision in purchasing it.


    So I'm raining on their parade. If they're truly happy and they made the right purchasing decision, why do they feel the need to come to this forum to defend their purchasing decision? !! They seem more angry than happy to anyone who's reading this :)


    So I'm supposed to say that "Tone Match" in the AXE FX II is the same as profiling and falsify the truth to be sensitive to someone who will be offended because they didn't do their homework.


    I think it would be rather insulting, condescending, and patronizing to tell someone "Oh don't worry, your AXE II has "Tone Match" which is the same or similar to profiling"


    This is a discussion forum and I'm not running for political office, I don't need votes that bad, so I don't see any good reason to bend the truth: If you bought the AXE II thinking "Tone Match" is the same as Profiling you have been duped, either intentionally or you got advice from a forum member who thought they needed to be sensitive to some over zealots owners who bought an extremely overpriced product based on false hype.


    How does someone have the nerves or any form of integrity or one milligram of honesty to openly falsely claim and advice others that tone match and profiling are the same or can accomplish the same thing? And how can people be so gullible that a simple clear fact like this goes unnoticed.


    I know I'm taking this seriously here, so yeah sure , who cares: EQ match is the same as dynamic profiling, suit yourselves fellows. Here you go, I just bent the truth for you, enjoy ^^

    Edited 4 times, last by Dean_R ().

    The Kemper is NOT a modeller.It is important for us guitar players to get this difference.One can get not tired to say this again and again..


    We may discuss if the KPA is technically a modeller but there is no discussion that its "philosophy" makes it something completely different.Creating your own sound from the scratch is something completely new.If you profile your own amps and it does not sound like your profiled amp you cant blame nobody else but yourself.With a modeller we always blamed the developer because the amp-models HE GAVE us did not meet our requirements.No matter how much tweaking someone did.The sound foundation was not good enough or did not come close enough to how the user wanted the amp-model to sound like the xyz-amp he had in mind.


    The KPA has no foundation.The user is the one who decides to build this foundation.Either with his own profiles of his own amps or with the profiles of other people who try to catch their amp-sounds..or both..


    So there is no need to wait for the developer to tell you that your JMP,JCM,AC-30,Twin or what ever will sound realer and realest and even more real than the original with evey new upgrade.


    If we are the ones who know have to learn about how to mic a cabinet,about how to use channel strips,mic pre's,EQ's and all this stuff ourselves it is hardly "just one more modeller".And I pitty everyone who does not get this and does not understand what a powerfull tool the KPA is or any other profiler in the future will be.

    Edited once, last by Nikos ().

    Quote from paults

    Not all digital sound generators are the same. Samplers and Synthesizers are not the same thing, but neither of them have pianos, organs, horns, etc. inside them.


    True but samples are a really special case as they are not being produced by digital interpretation but are rather a literal recording of the sound from the device. The Kemper is NOT recording the sounds it hears (ie it is not a sampler) therefore in the case of a digital device producing the approximation of another device it is doing modeling of the real life thing through the digital process. Argue it if you must, although I don't know why, but the Kemper (and I know Kemper would not argue this point) is an amp modeler just a question of what the model is derived from.

    Quote from Nikos

    The KPA has no foundation.The user is the one who decides to build this foundation.Either with his own profiles of his own amps or with the profiles of other people who try to catch their amp-sounds..or both..


    This is not correct. the KPA has a foundation hence the controls functions like "sag" to change the "modeling" of tube power sagging for one example. The KPA absolutely has block concepts derived from the idea of modeling a tube amp. The difference if that it listens to an amp giving it specific frequencies, levels, and attack curves to establish how to set the parameters of those block concepts of a tube amp and how a signal passes through it. If you don't think it is doing DSP based modeling (just like an AXE) at some basic level then you are not really understanding the actual process of the components and software contained in this device.


    In the end I love my Kemper and believe it does the best modeling of any device out there as it derives its models by listening to things I already love and then reproduces (models) them perfectly including parameter changes like input level and attack intensity.

    @mwinter77


    Dear friend..I said we may very nicely discuss about the question if the KPA is technically a modeler or not.Sure in the end you will convince me that indeed "technically" it is..but for me only the "result" defines a really helpfull "new technology".Is the idea of "profiling" very different than anything we got in the past;The clear and only answer must be "yes".I already said why I think so.


    Quote

    the KPA has a foundation hence the controls functions like "sag" to change the "modeling" of tube power sagging for one example.


    "Sag" will change the modeling of tube power sagging of WHAT FOUNDATION;


    Is this not the basic question;


    The answer is that it will "sag" YOUR profiled amp-sound.And not the one of the developer YOU did NOT like from the scratch.Dont take this personal.I know I can get easily angry or at least sound like I am but I indeed dont understand why people dont get this difference.It is not a small,subtle detail (as you make it sound) BUT the essence of the "profiler"-philosophy.


    I think it's semantics, just because the KPA is different to what many refer to as modelers it doesn't make it "Not a modeler". It gives the user the ability to model/profile/clone their own amps.


    I think KPA is more of a modeler than other products that many refer to as modelers; for instance the beloved AXE FX is not really a modeler according to Fractal, but for simplicity most refer to it as a modeler when in reality it attempts to provide a Studio produced sound of how the maker thinks the amp should sound like. I didn't make that up so I'll reference where I got this information from


    From the AXE FX Manual:


    "What is the Axe-Fx? What is the Axe-Fx? Well, let's start by telling you what it isn't. It's not a modeler in the strict sense. Although it has cabinet emulation and different amplifier "types" it does not attempt to model any effect exactly. "

    Edited 3 times, last by Dean_R ().

    Like 2
    Quote from Dean_R

    All I have to say, you're here in the Kemper website and you don't own one but the community welcomes you despite your misconduct and offensive name/language.


    You owe it to yourself to try the Kemper, but please don't ever become a fan boy of the Kemper


    Like you, you mean? Don't worry, I don't anyone would want to become that. :D


    Quote

    When you finally will be able to try first hand what accurate modeling is all about, please only share your excitement here in this website or other public forums or youtube but not at Fractal website or the Gearpage (both are run by AXE FX fan clubs)
    .


    Some of us have tried both the Kemper and the Axe-FX, and preferred the Axe. Why is that hard to understand?


    And if the Axe-Fx is so horribly bad, why does it keep it's value so well on the used market?

    Quote from firepile


    Like you, you mean? Don't worry, I don't anyone would want to become that. :D



    Some of us have tried both the Kemper and the Axe-FX, and preferred the Axe. Why is that hard to understand?


    And if the Axe-Fx is so horribly bad, why does it keep it's value so well on the used market?


    I understand very well that some could prefer the AXE FX and I did explain the reason before. It's like some prefer artificial sweetners better than real sugar. I happen to have read the manual and didn't want to buy a product that "does not attempt to model any effect exactly. " Why is that so hard to understand? Besides to my ears it sounded very artificial when compared with the miced sound of my tube amps. I profiled my amp using Kemper and it sounded identical.


    If you are so happy with your purchase and confident that you made the right choice, ask yourself, because I'm not asking you to explain to me (you need to answer to yourself), just explain to yourself "Why am I bothering with this person Dean on the Kemper Forum, to tell him how great the AXE FX is, when he clearly chose something that sounds better to him and is a good solution for him where he can profile his own tube amps" I welcome you to stay and discuss to your hearts content even though you have never answered one single question that I asked you to show that you're interested in a discussion.Let's try this again: How do you set your speaker resonance and impedance curve?


    According to the manual these multi-parameters are crucial to accuracy and they're approximated by the AXE FX II, if you seek accuracy, you need to tell the AXE FX by manually inputting these parameters as according to Cliff these are one of the things that simply can't be modeled?


    Recap:
    1)How do you set your speaker resonance and impedance curve?
    2)Are you aware or do you have a list of all the things that can't be modeled by the AXE FX II, because there's a huge list?
    if you need help compiling the list, I can assist and show you how deep the rabbit hole is


    It's only logical to conclude that AXE FX II only produces amplifier sounds to the specifications of how "Cliff" thinks the amp should sound like. He's a brilliant man, don't get me wrong, but to accurately model amps using the algorithmic methods he's using is simply impossible for any man to do.If you don't know the answer, that's fine, you can say you don't care about accuracy which is all I'm trying to say. Even Cliff himself posted in the gearpage that he knew that profiling method was more accurate but he opted to use algorithmic.


    The AXE FX II is not about accuracy and whether someone prefers inaccurate modeling is not relevant as I see it.Discuss please.


    Regards,
    Dean


    P.S: Regarding you question "why does it keep it's value so well on the used market?" Wait for a few weeks after the AX8 is released and let's revisit how much the AXE FX II will fetch on ebay.

    Edited once, last by Dean_R ().