Weird that no-one mentioned it yet...

    Yes, AXE people you say AXE is strong at modern tones and most of samples on youtube are about hi-gain. Can you please provide me with video where you A/B AXE to specific amp? Like here KPA with very old first ever I don't know version of firmware.


    AXE has gone thru 20> updates of firmwares and every one was the realer. REALER than what? Please provide some A/B.


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    There are quite a few profiles of the Axe-FX on the Rig Exchange that sound pretty damn good to me. Whether or not they sound "exactly" like anything doesn't matter, they still sound great. At some point I'll be buying one, no question about that.

    Quote from viabcroce

    Indeed, I can't understand all this "doesn't sound like the real thing": no amp sounds like another of the same model, specially after some use and at high volumes...


    Exactly. Line up three Plexis side by side, and they're not going to sound "exactly" like each other due to component drift, and the tolerances of the components to begin with. This is rock and roll, not nuclear physics. Close enough is good enough.

    Quote from Frodebro

    Exactly. Line up three Plexis side by side, and they're not going to sound "exactly" like each other due to component drift, and the tolerances of the components to begin with. This is rock and roll, not nuclear physics. Close enough is good enough.


    AXE sounds close to what? Because Kemper very close to profiled amp what you can find on multiple videos. So we agreed here that AXE models developers' interpretation of an amp. Thank you.

    To clarify, what matters to me is to get a realistic, organic tone I can mould with my fingers. Whether it sounds like something specific or not is out of my interest, specially because each guitar and PU sound different.

    Quote from skoczy


    AXE sounds close to what? Because Kemper very close to profiled amp what you can find on multiple videos. So we agreed here that AXE models developers' interpretation of an amp. Thank you.


    I didn't say the Axe sounded close to anything-I said it sounded GOOD. You can find 20 different JCM-800 profiles on the Rig Exchange that don't sound identical, but they all obviously came from actual 800s. I don't care if any of the profiles in the KPA sound EXACTLY like anything, either. That's just a bunch of nit-picky BS for people to argue about on the internet. As long as I can get good sounds that fit what I'm doing, I don't care if it's a profile of a BOSS Metal Zone into a Peavey Bandit or an Axe-FX model of a Grunge pedal into a Blues Junior with a red plating tube. I really don't care.

    Quote from Frodebro

    I didn't say the Axe sounded close to anything-I said it sounded GOOD. You can find 20 different JCM-800 profiles on the Rig Exchange that don't sound identical, but they all obviously came from actual 800s. I don't care if any of the profiles in the KPA sound EXACTLY like anything, either. That's just a bunch of nit-picky BS for people to argue about on the internet. As long as I can get good sounds that fit what I'm doing, I don't care if it's a profile of a BOSS Metal Zone into a Peavey Bandit or an Axe-FX model of a Grunge pedal into a Blues Junior with a red plating tube. I really don't care.


    Yes.


    And you know 20 different JCM800 profiles are different because the profiling process was done in different cisrcumstances (mic, mic position, guitar, preamp vol, knobs on KPA and bla bla bla). That said, good profile has the character and sound of profiled amp. At least very close to it.


    AXE changes sound with every firmware update and people got into loop, that every update was better.


    For sure you can get good sound from 8" Pvy Bandit. For sure I would suck while playing 1970 Custom Gibson Les Paul on 5000$ vintage tube amp. Because fingers play, not device.


    But in terms of reproducing amplifier + cab + mic Kemper does this very good when profiling is done very good.


    AXE sounds not close but identical to some source code that is operating on its processors.


    If the source code sounds good in the mix, then it's the right sound for the job. :D

    Quote from viabcroce

    To clarify, what matters to me is to get a realistic, organic tone I can mould with my fingers. Whether it sounds like something specific or not is out of my interest, specially because each guitar and PU sound different.



    This /\

    I never understood the brand loyalty of any product,
    The neverending Ford vs Chevy arguments either.
    They both have made some excellent vehicles through the years.
    They both have made some real turds too.


    But in the back of many peoples mind, they question whether they made the right decision
    and worry that the grass may be greener.
    So they inevitably will argue to the death on theirs being the best.


    The answer is, what is it that YOU want and like.
    I personally dont care what car my neighbor drives.
    And I am not going to go over his house and tell him how wrong he is for buying it.



    Does your choice sound good to you? Do you enjoy playing it?
    Are you getting the tones you like?
    Is your audience saying your sound sucks?
    Thats all that matters.
    Who really cares about the technicals of how they sound the way they do.


    To question is not the problem, arguing about it is.
    Some people act as if they created the device and feel the need to defend it.
    That would be a little more understandable.....I guess.



    You guys do know how this will end, dont you?


    1. Stalemate
    2. Locked thread
    3. Some butthurts
    4. Agree to not agree
    5. Flaunting on the Axe forums


    At least until the next thread 3....2......1....


    I am pretty sure that no one on either side will give in and say that they have been convinced by the opposing team and go and sell their Kemper or Axe to buy the other.

    Quote from Inthrutheout


    The answer is, what is it that YOU want and like.


    I WANT and like


    1) realistic (amp-like) reaction to volume roll-down
    2) reaction to attack = crunch amp setting but soft fingers - almost clean, hitting harder will give me hairy overdrive
    3) jingly,belly (I know stupid words) cleans and natural, organic crunch/breakup


    About hi-gain I don't care that much because I cannot hear that much nuances between gear, distortion covers natural amp tone and players playing (or sucking at playing). Clean and breakup is where it matters. FOR ME.


    I will state this again, for me most number of youtube videos for AXE are high gain: Mark Day is endorser for AXE now. I haven't seen clean demo. Just chugga chugga.


    I entered "axe fx ii into youtube", launched first video. First sample is fender bassman interpretation. And later we have distortion tones or clean tones BUT SOAKED with chorus, flangers, pitch shifting etc. Yes I believe number of effects is where AXE wins, but I don't need much more that touch of delay and reverb.


    EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT


    So now found video from G66 European distributor of AXE when the presenter says:


    "So I wanna start with preset Doubleverb, which really showcases the Fractals model of a Fender Twin Reverb amplifier" - so now I'm in confusion, because as AXE's manual states AXE is not modeler - Dear_R can you help?


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    Edited once, last by skoczy ().

    Quote from skoczy

    [quote='Inthrutheout','http://www.kemper-amps.com/forum/index.php/Thread/24362-Weird-that-no-one-mentioned-it-yet/?postID=256944#post256944']


    So now found video from G66 European distributor of AXE when the presenter says:


    "So I wanna start with preset Doubleverb, which really showcases the Fractals model of a Fender Twin Reverb amplifier" - so now I'm in confusion, because as AXE's manual states AXE is not modeler - Dear_R can you help?


    What that means and it always was understood and communicated by Fractal as well as AXE FX users is that the AXE FX doesn't intend to be accurate, so when you see a model that says Twin Reverb, it's after Fractal removed or didn't model many aspects of the amp and exaggerated certain features in the amp to arrive at a super version of the amp that's actually better than the amp itself.


    AXE FX users always said that the AXE FX was supposed to be "better than the Real Thing" in a U2 kind of way I guess.


    Before the Kemper was released they did get away with this hype and many fell for it! Very simple. To illustrate why the AXE is no better than the Pod where they all sound very fake if compared with the real amp, I will direct everyone to compare. The first video is of the AXE FX II Bogner XTC go to 4:59
    and compare with this clip of a Kemper profile. As far as I'm concerned this clearly illustrated to me how the axe FX is not and won't be as musical as Kemper.


    AXE is simply harsh and fake in comparison. I don't see a need to apologize because my ears tell me that the AXE II in this example *and first hand trying it", is fake and artificial. If your ears tell you any different please share your thought about the difference between these two same amps but don't call me names or attack me personally because I state my honest opinion that might not agree with yours. It's only a discussion about gear, it's not like I'm calling anyone names or saying there wives are ugly :D


    Be honest with yourselves and state which one you think sounds like a real amp. There are countless comparisons that I listened to before I chose the Kemper and I thought it was clear as day light.


    Kemper Bogner XTC

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    AXE FX II, XTC go to 4:59

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    Edited 4 times, last by Dean_R ().

    Hi Dean,


    You most likely were not aware of this when you posted earlier but Fractal bought or borrowed every amp including a Dumble when they were doing the mimic thing. They also had users send in amps if they wanted them mimic'd. I recall Cliff posting that schematics weren't cutting it. You may have misread the user manual regarding their goals, here's an excerpt:


    "You may have noticed that the Axe-Fx II is not typically described as a “modeler.” This is not to diminish its debt to heritage; on the contrary, we’ve done thousands of hours of deep analysis of the greatest amps, cabs, and effects of all time. In fact, amps and pedals, their vacuum tubes and other components, plus speaker cabs and many effects, are painstakingly replicated to perform exactly like the originals. But while the unit includes emulations based on specific product types, it goes well beyond simply presenting models—with their limited controls, features, and sounds—to offer a do-it-yourself modeling platform. If it’s models you want, we can give them to you, but why stop there?"


    It goes on to state that you can change tonestacks and warp advance parameters if you wish. That's probably where the whole "better than an amp" thing came in. Just advertising it's features beyond the amp simulation attempts.


    They actually do strive to sound exactly like the models they claim to represent but whether they achieve that is the subject of much debate. It is clear where you stand on the subject. According to Fractal even the positions of the knobs match the amps and interact the same way. Again, you may disagree. I'm pretty sure the only thing that can't be modeled is the speaker impedance thingy. That being said the presets are already set to what they are supposed to be. If you change IRs you probably should look up the wiki that informs you of what the proper setting might be for that cab or play it by ear as I do.



    Oh, here is a better example for your Bogner test:


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    It's kinda old but what the heck. I'm not one to state that it sounds better now as an excuse for poor tones. Just thought I'd help clarify a bit.


    For the record, I think the Kemper product is an outstanding development in digital guitar emulating. It sounds awesome no doubt. Probably shouldn't even be discussing the Fractal unit here as most folks are Kemper users. I read the forum from time to time. I am waiting for the next thing from these guys. I think they will come out with something with maybe USB recording, more effects, and other features folks want. I'll nab one then. Right now I'm on the list for that AX8 thing and I'll definitely check out the new line 6 deal too.

    Edited 3 times, last by zentman ().

    Like 3

    Last thing before I disappear again. Here's an quote from around Mimic time:


    CLIFF NOTES! Here's an update on FW10.


    "I have about a dozen amps left to match. The code is done. It's just the grunt work of lugging the amps into the lab and hooking them up and running all the MIMIC tests that remains. Some amps are done quickly. Others can take some time if MIMIC indicates a discrepancy in the model which means I have to revisit the model and check for incorrect parameters. The goal is for the model to be as close as possible to perfect and let MIMIC clean up the fine details. MIMIC *can* completely warp an amp into another amp but then the tone controls will probably not work the same, etc. So, in theory, the model doesn't have to be very accurate if you are only interested in matching the amp at some given knob settings. However, I want the model to as perfect as possible so everything works just like the amp. FWIW, in many cases the new modeling is so accurate that it's nearly impossible to hear the difference with the MIMIC processing turned off."




    It's filled with hyperbole but it does read that he was dragging those amps in to test. Congrats on your Kemper decision. May it give you many years of tonal blis

    Thank you Zentman for posting this and I appreciate the civility and your kind tone. I'm not going to say that the clip you posted isn't nice. It is, but my ears give the edge to the Kemper to what might not initially seem to be of tremendous significance but considering other factors the gap in my opinion would get larger if one would layer several tracks in a multi track environment.


    I have to admit this was much less harsh than other clips but the highs still had a discernible harshness and to be honest, all other modelers from my experience suffer mainly in representing high frequencies except for the Kemper. Now if you factor the price and if the object is to get good amp models, I think the AXE II was unjustifiable, but now with the AX8 coming out at 1400, it might be reasonable.


    You also have to consider that the misinformation propagated by many owners of the AXE FX about tone match being similar or the same as Profiling is a bit much. Considering what I've seen in the gear page and all over the net, I somehow ended up with a let's say, not so favorable image of what I perceive to be deceiving unsuspecting consumers by knowingly twisting facts. That;s why I actively started posting recently. I normally just read, but I think it's ok for information to be shared and letting those who read truly see the other side of the coin instead of getting bogged down by trying to be polite and in the process misrepresent how you exactly view a product.


    From my prospective and as someone has mentioned above, sure this thread will end up without resolution seemingly, but the shared information might enlighten some unsuspecting consumer who doesn't know what an EQ match, or profiling from a hole in the wall.


    Regarding the existence of the amps that were actually modeled, I read somewhere were someone asked the question of line 6 rep also. who said they might post some demonstration videos to compare the accuracy of their modeling but I'm yet to see anything from any other modeler other than Kemper.


    As for the impedance thing being the only thing that can't be modeled, I'm almost certain that the list is massive of things that haven't been modeled. Ghost notes aren't modeled by fractal, so is hum. I know it might seem that they're useless , but their presence or non presence might affect the sound and rob it from other musical harmonics that wouldn't have a chance to be heard with their absence. .


    Is fractal accounting for how hot the tubes are because anyone who has played tube amps knows that tube amps when the tubes are hot would sound significantly different.*, is it accounting for Mullard Power tubes or ruby tubes. I believe the reason behind not showing comparisons is because all these factors will result in the amp sounding very different (within a normal range) but when compared with the model will have significant differences and that's why all these amps are no shown.


    It's virtually an impossible task with the current technology to model tube amps using algorithms and that's why wisely, C Kemper chose profiling instead of algorithms, because schematics as you mentioned won't cut it and measuring the real amp also doesn't cut it because there's so much fluctuations and irregularities from the minute you turn the amp on till i't turned off.


    I believe that I may have detected some guitar, buried within that reverb. :P;)