So I bought an Axe Fx Ax8 and I have been profiling my preset as I make them...

Quote from HappyKemper

I agree with producer Lasse Lammert when it comes to modelers vs Kemper.
"pros and cons vs a fractal?"
-"Lasse Lammert: easy answer:
Fractal sounds like a really good amp modeller that mimics the tone of someone else's idea of how a miked amp should sound.
Kemper: sounds like your rig/an actual amp (not like a modeller).Both have great FX."

Of course I respect Lammert's opinion, though I also respect the opinion of engineers like Jack Douglas. Douglas engineered John Lennon's 'Imagine', Aerosmith's 'Toys In The Attic', and produced albums for Supertramp, Slash's Snakepit, and other top acts, so he definitely has an ear for good tone in my opinion, and he uses an Axe in the studio.

Quote from HappyKemper

A Wagener video found in this long list of hundreds of bands and producers using kemper on albums and live.
Maybe it's this video you referred to?

That's the one.

Quote from Dean_R

So sure someone would be comfortable with the AXE II, Helix, Eleven etc. but their comfort is based on unrealistic response that isn't captured by the various modeler of how a tube amp should sound and respond.

In my opinion, there are far too many venerable engineers, bands, and artists using the Axe II in the industry to compare it to a sugar substitute. These are people who know good tone and can afford any piece of gear they want and have plenty of tube amps at their disposal. If they say it's good enough for studio use and touring, that's saying something.

Quote from deadpan

1. KPA
2. Axe

Quote

One man's fizzy is another man's hairy.

The Axe does not have an inherent fizz. It is only fizzy if dialed in that way. Unfortunately I like brighter tones and for me it is more clear and cuts more. Darker tones are generally dull to me and unlively.

Both devices can be both.

They are both professional devices and in the right hands amazing.

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You are talking on deaf ears.

Quote from HappyKemper

I agree with producer Lasse Lammert when it comes to modelers vs Kemper.
"pros and cons vs a fractal?"
-"Lasse Lammert: easy answer:
Fractal sounds like a really good amp modeller that mimics the tone of someone else's idea of how a miked amp should sound.

Yes, if you profile your own rig. If not, the profile will be someone else's idea of how a miked amp should should.

Quote

Both have great FX."

The Axe arguably has better, and far more flexible, FX.

[Blocked Image: https://media.giphy.com/media/qd7Wlk9nx8VwI/giphy.gif]

Quote from ColdFrixion

In my opinion, there are far too many venerable engineers, bands, and artists using the Axe II in the industry to compare it to a sugar substitute. These are people who know good tone and can afford any piece of gear they want and have plenty of tube amps at their disposal. If they say it's good enough for studio use and touring, that's saying something.

All modelers nowadays are good enough for anything you throw at them. The AXE is not exceptional in that regard. Steve Howe toured with POD HD 500 to recreate all of his sounds, and POD 2.0 was probably on more records than any digital device.

Again, tone is subjective while accuracy is defined and measurable. Kemper is much more accurate as defined and tested, the AXE, Helix, never tested for accuracy.

A creative artist can make music with any device, but when you talk about amp modeling, the measure should the accuracy of the modeling,

Why even claim to have modeled any specific amp if you can't demonstrate the accuracy other than deceptive marketing? Just call the modeled amps something like they used to do a while back. amp 1, 2, 3 or clean, British, American, and give those some numbering schemes, but don't say Bognar XTC, JCM800 when you can't show these amps or demonstrate them. When a company Like Kemper Amps demonstrates everyday the accuracy of KPA, line 6 or Fractal have absolutely nothing to support their claim of accurately modeling something that might just be schematic on paper for all that we know!

How do we know that the amps modeled actually existed? They might have rented them and got signed documents that these amps will never be disclosed so no one can trace them and compare them to the modeling as it would clearly show how far off or inaccurate their algorithms are.

Quote from ColdFrixion

Of course I respect Lammert's opinion, though I also respect the opinion of engineers like Jack Douglas.

We all know many various modelers and software sims can sound great, they are pro gear. Pods are prob. used more than any other digital amp gear in studios over the years.
The clear point I was making is the big difference in how the kemper works and what it can do compared to a traditional component modeler like the Axe fx or pods. If I want to copy my studio amp collection and whole signal chain with mics, cabs, pres, pedals to save as reference with various combinations, the kemper is the only gear you can do it with. It's a no brainer. I'm not gonna use the Axe fx2 or pod in the studio for that since they can't do it. It's one of the major reasons the kemper has become so popular with users who have real amps they want to replicate.
Some are fine using digital amp gear that can give you great sound, not bothered by that it can't replicate their own amp rig. Some will prefer the gear that can replicate their own amp gear since they care a lot about authenticity and this is where the kemper shines. Some have no problem using either approach, including me. I can have fun with any gear I use, including Kemper, pods or Axe fx 2.

Quote from fredrikn

Yes, if you profile your own rig. If not, the profile will be someone else's idea of how a miked amp should should.

The Axe arguably has better, and far more flexible, FX.

Effect quality is mostly subjective and I prefer using high quality studio effects in studio DAW over either Axe fx or kemper. They also don't replace my real pedals and hardware effects. Both Axe and kemper have high quality pro effects and there are several effects I prefer in the kemper over some in the Axe fx. Some I prefer in the Axe fx and it has more quantity effects, but not more quality. Saying that all effects in one unit is better makes no sense since they are all different.

I prefer the kemper space reverb (ambience), Wah wah, chorus, rotary, compressor, noise gates, pitch & harmony effects.
Kemper has a big advantage with the pitch effects with great tracking, transpose and some unique features like formant shift and pure tuning. With so expensive processors in the Axe fx (same in helix) it's a mystery why fractal (that strangely market their effects as legendary) after so many years are behind both kemper, Digitech and Electroharmonix when it comes to pitch effects. It's another proof that quality is about algorithms and not expensive DSP (good for quantity).

Both have very high quality effects and more than most would use. The Axe has more effects and more routing options than most use.
They simply can't replace and copy all our favorite pedals, real reverbs and hardware so I keep that gear. I prefer some reverbs in the kemper and the more reverb types in the Axe (not the spring). Also more drive pedals in the axe but they don't replace my real pedals which I prefer.

Quote from Dean_R

All modelers nowadays are good enough for anything you throw at them. The AXE is not exceptional in that regard. Steve Howe toured with POD HD 500 to recreate all of his sounds, and POD 2.0 was probably on more records than any digital device.

I'm not a fan of Steve Howe or his music. His endorsement doesn't mean much to me. Neal Schon and Alex Lifeson on the other hand, well, Rush and Journey are two of my favorite bands and legendary in their own right. Their endorsements do mean something to me. Are you suggesting that neither one can tell the difference between a real tube amp and a mediocre imitation? Further, are you implying that an engineer of Jack Douglas' caliber wouldn't figuratively know the difference between real sugar and a sugar substitute? Very few people would seriously suggest Jack Douglas can't tell the difference. He didn't get to where he is because he has a tin ear.

If endorsements were irrelevant, neither Kemper or Fractal Audio would bother listing high profile engineers, bands, and artists that use their gear.

Quote from Dean_R

Kemper is much more accurate as defined and tested

Which test?

Quote from Dean_R

Just call the modeled amps something like they used to do a while back. amp 1, 2, 3 or clean, British, American, and give those some numbering schemes, but don't say Bognar XTC, JCM800 when you can't show these amps or demonstrate them.

There are no amp models in the Axe labeled Bogner, XTC, or JCM800.

Quote from Dean_R

How do we know that the amps modeled actually existed?

Do you have a more plausible explanation as to how the amp models were created? It's like asking, how do we know the amps Kemper claims to have profiled in their videos were even connected to the Kemper and not the amp when they demo'd the supposed profile? Were you there? Did you personally see them connect the guitar to the Kemper? Ever heard of Occam's Razor?

Quote from HappyKemper

Some are fine using digital amp gear that can give you great sound, not bothered by that it can't replicate their own amp rig. Some will prefer the gear that can replicate their own amp gear since they care a lot about authenticity and this is where the kemper shines. Some have no problem using either approach, including me. I can have fun with any gear I use, including Kemper, pods or Axe fx 2.

Why do you think Steve Vai uses the Axe if not to replicate his sound? Lots of guitarists do. That's Steve Vai's entire rig on tour. They're different modes of transportation that can ultimately take you to the same place. Obviously the Kemper is great at capturing a specific sound. The issue isn't whether either one can take you there, but which method you prefer. The Kemper is great because it's quick and gets the job done, but you'll need the actual amp unless you can find a profile that captures your sound. The Axe can get you there, but you're going to have to twist some knobs, thus it might take longer. I've heard some fairly crappy tones with the Axe, but then what you get out of it depends on what you put into it. Unlike the Kemper, there's a lot more variables to play with.

How many of those AXE users have compared it BY using the FULL kemper....
i am talking ALL its features , short cuts , FEATURES and POWER.. (and vica versa)
Beside the pro and con debate.
Who has used the full power of the kemper, i think most if us have only scratched the surface.
id like to see Axe users learn the full power and compare...THEN comment...

Go look at some of Mike Britt's tips and the new 4.0 coming out....
THERE IS MORE (coolness/power) TO YOUR KEMPER THAN YOU KNOW...(just saying)

Ash

Quote from ashtweth

How many of those AXE users have compared it BY using the FULL kemper....
i am talking ALL its features , short cuts , FEATURES and POWER.. (and vica versa)
Beside the pro and con debate.
Who has used the full power of the kemper, i think most if us have only scratched the surface.
id like to see Axe users learn the full power and compare...THEN comment...

I can't speak for anyone else but I wasn't comparing the Kemper to the Axe.

Sure understand my friend, BTW Steve Vai is playing with sepultura now...(some gigs)
Now has he used the kemper?

Ash

Quote from ashtweth

Sure understand my friend, BTW Steve Vai is playing with sepultura now...(some gigs)
Now has he used the kemper?

I don't know. Vai makes serious use of the Axe's routing and effects, though.

Quote from Dean_R

I also watched that video before I bought the KPA and it did have a lot to do with my decision, specifically when he talks about how those who get used to modeler no longer remember how real amps react. When they get back to playing real amps, it takes some adjusting to re learn how real amps respond.

Our hearing will get used to anything after a while and our sound comparison memory only lasts a few seconds.
It's very convenient to do direct A-B comparisons when profiling amps.
There are more profiling tutorials in this wikpa link
http://www.wikpa.org/Profiling_Tutorials#Videos

Kemper Amps Profiling Demonstration Live on Air with John Huldt, on The Flo Guitar Enthusiasts

Kemper Nashville profiling session - Dave Cleveland @ Sunset Blvd Studio - 60s Princeton Amp by Tyler.

I'm not getting involved in the Fractal v Kemper debate (the only experience I have of a Fractal unit is an acquaintance's Axe FX Ultra, which sounds killer in his grindcore recordings), but Vai only uses the Axe for effects. As he is known for making use of fairly complex chains on occasion, this can only be a big complement as far as the quality of the effects of the Axe are concerned. He's obviously not ready to commit to modelled amp sounds though, as he still plays through two Carvin Legacy heads live.

Quote from sambrox

I'm not getting involved in the Fractal v Kemper debate (the only experience I have of a Fractal unit is an acquaintance's Axe FX Ultra, which sounds killer in his grindcore recordings), but Vai only uses the Axe for effects. As he is known for making use of fairly complex chains on occasion, this can only be a big complement as far as the quality of the effects of the Axe are concerned. He's obviously not ready to commit to modelled amp sounds though, as he still plays through two Carvin Legacy heads live.

Yep, though he did say the Axe is his whole rig live. Source

Quote from ColdFrixion

Yep, though he did say the Axe is his whole rig live. Source

Taken out of context, though. See from 41 seconds :

You can run just as many effect through the kemper remote ....
bah...

Ash

Quote from sambrox

Taken out of context, though. See from 41 seconds :

I wasn't disagreeing with you. If you look at the signal chain of the Axe in the link I posted(when he turns the unit on), there's no amp or cab block in the grid either. The chain is: compressor, drive, GEQ, pan, 2 filters(in parallel), flanger, filter, chorus(in parallel), rotary, and delay(in parallel). Undoubtedly a large part of his sound.

Quote from ashtweth

You can run just as many effect through the kemper remote ....

I don't have the remote. I will say the Axe's effects have some serious in-depth parameter control and they sound outstanding, though.