900+ words in one single block are off-putting.Other forum members have no problem using the Enter key once in a while,
it would only be fair to return the favour.
I don't believe I have ever been micromanaged by a moderator on an forum before, weird. I'm not concerned about others, I choose freewill. 
I don't believe I have ever been micromanaged by a moderator on an forum before, weird. I'm not concerned about others, I choose freewill.
I'm asking you nicely to adhere to basic netiquette.
Your lack of concern for others is somewhat troubling, especially since this is a community of over 28.000 people.
Display More@Nemo
I am more of the player who has lived his life as musician and has made his choices of life according to the needs and ways of a musician.
All the talkings and discussion about the "future of gear" are nice and I like them very much but dont forget what it is all about in the end:Music
Much more important than gear is love & knowledge about the laws of music and hard work than any piece of gear.
And I will not conclude that you-dear Nemo-dont know anything about these sacrifices of really,really digging deep into the rabbithole of music instead of buying "the future" in form of some tool because I simply dont know you as you dont know me to draw conclusions like you did so easily in your very first sentence in the post above.
peace & love
Nikos, we all make choices of life according to our needs and ways as musicians. That doesn't change the fact that you and others were possibly molded by a common denominator. Looking back at the start of your quest, why did you choose ____ or ____? There are simple needs, and then there are advanced needs. You are either a simple musician, or you are a musical wizard. Nature and grand design fit into play here obviously. I realize the desire of music, but unfortunately there is a obsession for an unobtainable tone absent from the real world inside all of our heads that drives us to gear madness. We are not divine... Damn, so as humans we can only quest for perfection. So here we are. Again. ...And again... 
(Enter space for the mods)
Yes, concluding about someone would take reasonable real life assessment in person or at least by resume, unless there are pointers in discussion that give clue to common traits that make a clearer picture other than just a silhouette, or formidable insight / foresight, but I digress... The takeaway is nothing will stop the future. Tubes have been around forever and found a second life in music gear. That second life is closer than ever to ending. The fun part is we can all watch it happen, as stated, let's revisit this thread in a few years and see what happened! How exciting! 
As far as the future goes, it is my opinion that the tube amp will not be in danger from a sales perspective until the price of a digital device (with the tone of a Kemper or Axe II Fx) is significantly below that of a decent tube amp.
Another problem with the digital approach is that (even with the Kemper) the quality of the sound is heavily dependent on the quality of the speaker you use with it.
A complete tube amp solution for a Peavey Classic 30 can be had for ~$400.00.... speaker and all.
I had a friend purchase a Kemper to replace his Marshal after hearing it (on my PA using DSR112's over PRX618XLF's) side by side with my Kemper. Unfortunately, on his very dated PA (old rat fur 15" horn loaded tops over equally old rat fur subs with barely any output), the Kemper sounds like crap. He ended up going back to his Marshal simply because it sounded better with his rig. Sad but true 
It is my understanding that decent tone can be achieved with a speaker like the Alto 212 ($300). In order for a digital rig with even an Alto speaker, you would have to be in the $100.00 range for the digital portion.
Perhaps in the future, integrated packages with amp and speaker will be available for digital solutions. The powered speaker revolution has shown that in the hands of master engineers, cheep speaker components can be made to sound quite good with enough DSP behind them. Maybe that would be a path forward for the digital approach.
So my opinion is that it is more about price/performance. That little Classic 30 has some pretty good tones in it for only $400.00. It doesn't have Kemper + DSR112 quality tones, or the number of tones, or the efx, but I could survive a gig with one if I had to (btw, not so with any line 6 amp made to date. Hate those things ). Then again, one would hope to God and all that is holy that a ~ $3000.00 solution would be better than a $400.00 solution don't you think?
Display MoreInteresting that till yet no one here in this discussion sees that the tube amp is a big part of the rocknroll myth.Actually this is the main reason why no digital tool will replace it yet..
It is the "last line of defence" against the 9.00-17.00 reality.The last piece of rocknroll in the lives of millions with a beloved old Hendrix/Rolling Stones T-shirt in their wardrobe the wife wants so desperatly to throw in the garbarge since years and the daughter comments it like "dad..this is embarassing"...
The wood,metal,hot tubes,huge knobs...it is loud,difficult to tame..do I need to say more;
Plastic,computers,programmes,"modelling 3D-adventures"...all things most do in their office day in day out.When these guys come home they have to care for their family,doing homework with their children etc..and afterwards late in the evening they have maybe 1-2 hours for themselves before they go to bed and the next "Grounddog day" next morning.
This last fortress of manhood,of rocknroll and "wild lifestyle" (yes..the tube amp) will stay on top for a long time to come.The KPA (or any other modeler) is here to stay in music because it is a wonderfull tool for making the lives of many,many,many musicians easier.It sounds great and can do "everything" on stage and in the studio but this is not the issue.We talk about something different and some million guys of several post 50s rock/pop-eras who dont care about if the xyz-amp/tool can soundwise (not to mention "routingwise" or "UI-wise")..do this or that.They just want to feel good.This is not to difficult to understand..
Hmm, I'm exactly the guy you describe above, early fifties, fulltime job, fult-time single father/parent of 2 boys, for a few years now, shared custody before that (though this year, oldest stays on campus all week, is only home on weekends, so load is lessened a little since this fall).
Oddly enough, though I moved to a Kemper, sold off 6 Tube amps, keeping only 2 collectible amps, because they are collectible.
And, OMG, I just helped a late 40s guy do the same move as I. And, lordy, lordy, bought my Atomic CLR cab used, from a 60+ Axe FX player.
I can go on.
But, your point is a good one, that players buy what the players they grow up idolizing, plays/played.
But, it doesn't support your theorem. Because what will dictate the future, isn't what the old farts like me use (and as I showed, that isn't cut and dry, now is it). No, it is what the younger gen of players get into. And guess what the younger pros are playing a LOT on. Yep digital gear, modelers and Profilers. So, THAT is what young folks will see, and according to your dictum, buy themselves.
If I was getting paid to write an article, I would care. On a forum for average people? My post is fine, get what you can out of it.
Just constructive criticism from Don, who has the job of making the forum the best it can be. I skipped reading your post when I saw a large unformatted block of text. I suspect others did too.
Just constructive criticism from Don, who has the job of making the forum the best it can be. I skipped reading your post when I saw a large unformatted block of text. I suspect others did too.
Yes, arrogance and poorly formatted posts really make me want to read it. NOT.
Display MoreAs far as the future goes, it is my opinion that the tube amp will not be in danger from a sales perspective until the price of a digital device (with the tone of a Kemper or Axe II Fx) is significantly below that of a decent tube amp.
Another problem with the digital approach is that (even with the Kemper) the quality of the sound is heavily dependent on the quality of the speaker you use with it
Don't kid yourself, this is also true with tube amps.
A complete tube amp solution for a Peavey Classic 30 can be had for ~$400.00.... speaker and all.
I run into this a lot in my work. Your forgetting total cost of ownership. MANY people on that particular model replace the stock Blue Marvel after hearing it hold the amp back. So, eventually, there is another $70-150 for that. Not just the C30, but MOST lower end tube amp owners eventually, sooner rather than later, replace the crap, stock tubes. On that PV C30, that's another $100 minimum. But, wait, that
s not all the fun you get. Those tubes need to be replaced every 6 months to a year and a half (if your real lucky) on those EL84s. This is particularly true, if this is your one and only amp, and/or you gig with it. PV Classic, happens to be a fixed bias amp too. SO, for most, that means taking it in for that retube, to get it rebiased as well. That means paying someone. I used to do my own amps, but, there are many that won't even tackle an adjustable fixed bias amp, let alone fixed.
You want to record that PV Classic? Well, pony up for a mic or DI device. There's another 125-150. Going to gig with it? Well fork out some more for that footswitch.
Ah, but your a home player you say. Got it. So, when you realize that that PV 30 watt tube amp gets VERY VERY loud, real fast, and your not a fan of just it's preamp distortion, you go for a few dirt pedals. Just one, good one runs you another 150 or more. Get a light boost, an OD and a distortion, and you have likely added another 4-500.
That Reverb tank aint enough FX for ya? No problem, plenty of options for add-on FX out there. But lets go cheap, and get a $100-150 multifx stomp box.
So, how nuch did that amp REALLY cost?
If your just a home player who records some stuff, your up over 1100 for that 'cheap PV classic' after getting good tubes for it, replacing the speaker, got a mic to record, an FX pedal, and some dirt pedals.
And, that isn't counting the regular service, new tubes, biasing possibly, over the years.
And, oops, you find out that PV C30 isn't enough tonal variation for you. Means buying another amp, or more pedals.
Before my Kemper, my main rig was a Fender 68 Custom Deluxe Reverb, with a pedal board of OD and Amp in a box dirt pedals. Fantastic tone. Cost more than my KPA unpowered head, all together. .
I had a friend purchase a Kemper to replace his Marshal after hearing it (on my PA using DSR112's over PRX618XLF's) side by side with my Kemper. Unfortunately, on his very dated PA (old rat fur 15" horn loaded tops over equally old rat fur subs with barely any output), the Kemper sounds like crap. He ended up going back to his Marshal simply because it sounded better with his rig. Sad but true
Why not get a decent speaker then? And, why not even TRY running a DI profile, or Cab off on a studio or merged, into his same CAB he uses for the Marshall. Your anecdote, smacks a little of something, or your friend is a bit of a dilettante.
It is my understanding that decent tone can be achieved with a speaker like the Alto 212 ($300). In order for a digital rig with even an Alto speaker, you would have to be in the $100.00 range for the digital portion.
Depends. Are you a home player or recordist already? FRFR Monitors, you may already have will be just fine. Got Guitar CABS already, most likely? Then (see above) you can run those.
Perhaps in the future, integrated packages with amp and speaker will be available for digital solutions. The powered speaker revolution has shown that in the hands of master engineers, cheep speaker components can be made to sound quite good with enough DSP behind them. Maybe that would be a path forward for the digital approach.
So my opinion is that it is more about price/performance. That little Classic 30 has some pretty good tones in it for only $400.00. It doesn't have Kemper + DSR112 quality tones, or the number of tones, or the efx, but I could survive a gig with one if I had to (btw, not so with any line 6 amp made to date. Hate those things
I think we have seen, that for many, that CV30 doesn't really cost $400, now does it.
see red above
Great points from cybermgk. Lot's of hidden costs in a simple solution for many players. It's funny that the Classic 30 was mentioned specifically. For my last rehearsal on guitar, I was feeling lazy and left the Kemper at home and used the house's Classic 30. It was a miserable experience for me. I've heard that folks like them, but it completely didn't work for me. And that reminds me, there's another hidden cost in tube amps. When a sound stops working for you, you need to sell the old one and buy a new one, which often involves putting out some more money. You can't just switch profiles.
Yes, arrogance and poorly formatted posts really make me want to read it. NOT.
I always skip long unformatted posts. If they don't have the time to separate their thoughts into paragraphs, then I don't have the time to read it. Simple as that :-).
Great points from cybermgk. Lot's of hidden costs in a simple solution for many players. It's funny that the Classic 30 was mentioned specifically. For my last rehearsal on guitar, I was feeling lazy and left the Kemper at home and used the house's Classic 30. It was a miserable experience for me. I've heard that folks like them, but it completely didn't work for me. And that reminds me, there's another hidden cost in tube amps. When a sound stops working for you, you need to sell the old one and buy a new one, which often involves putting out some more money. You can't just switch profiles.
Yep new amp, or MAYBE a new pedal or two. That's where I was, amps all over, different cabs, for different speakers and tone, 8 or so actively used dirt and amp in a box pedals, a few more on the side
SO much more compact now, with the same tone, and MORE versatility with the Kemper.
Just constructive criticism from Don, who has the job of making the forum the best it can be. I skipped reading your post when I saw a large unformatted block of text. I suspect others did too.
You skipped my most important post?! It's ok... But next time... 
Ok, let's talk tube amps. China made cheapo amps suck and they are everywhere. There, I said it. And I am tired of the excuse "Well, we have strict high quality standards over at our China sweatshop and we can assure everyone of the highest standards... blah.. blah..." And yet, the several times I have bought China made amps, the tolex is sticky (WTH?) and rolling off from the back, screws loose, and switches sometimes work, etc... Garbage! But cheap and that is what sells big, cheap garbage amps. The high end amps are the only ones worth it and they are average $2000 and up.
I love the Kemper. There's nothing wrong with it as is, but by the same token there's absolutely nothing to indicate that it's making a dent in amp sales. Compare the number of amps actually sold on eBay to Kempers sold. Amp sales crush it. I mean, I'll take a Kemper over a tube amp all day long but the fact is it's not a threat to the bottom line of amp manufacturers.
Well, the sales numbers on eBay can be explained. Users profile their amps, keep the Kemper and sell their amps on eBay afterwards
Well, the sales numbers on eBay can be explained. Users profile their amps, keep the Kemper and sell their amps on eBay afterwards
Fair enough, they're still finding buyers, but the sellers are losing the 13% that the ebay takes and they can't be getting full price, might as well buy commercial profiles for those rare and hard to find amp or go to the rig exchange, there's hardly any amp that isn't there.
Well, the sales numbers on eBay can be explained. Users profile their amps, keep the Kemper and sell their amps on eBay afterwards
Considering that the initial expense of many worthwhile tube amp heads is over $1,000(and often much higher), and as Dean pointed out, eBay takes a cut, I think it's highly unlikely.
Considering that the initial expense of many worthwhile tube amp heads is over $1,000(and often much higher), and as Dean pointed out, eBay takes a cut, I think it's highly unlikely.
I was just joking
Fair enough, they're still finding buyers, but the sellers are losing the 13% that the ebay takes and they can't be getting full price, might as well buy commercial profiles for those rare and hard to find amp or go to the rig exchange, there's hardly any amp that isn't there.
Beside the fact that I was just joking, I meant amps that the users already own before they buy a Kemper. If someone would want to profile new amps (at least here in Europe), he could just grab a test unit from a local store and return it after profiling it without any money or loss involved. Of course that's not ok from an ethical perspective and I don't think that it happens too often.
Beside the fact that I was just joking, I meant amps that the users already own before they buy a Kemper. If someone would want to profile new amps (at least here in Europe), he could just grab a test unit from a local store and return it after profiling it without any money or loss involved. Of course that's not ok from an ethical perspective and I don't think that it happens too often.
Sorry I didn't pickup on that, but here in the US you have 30 days to return. Besides the ethical thing, I think it would be crazy anyway. My honest thoughts on this, is that some like the thrill of the chase and are never going to settle. You would think that with so much options satisfaction is easier to attain but market research has shown that more options results in less satisfaction. Some have wisely narrowed down to less than ten or even three profiles for everything, while others own everything under the sun and are still looking for something new everyday.
I honestly think that the modeling communities (myself included) waste too much time hopping around and I'm trying to narrow down to 2 or three profiles with different EQ and effects, there's no doubt in my mind these would be more than enough.
I was just joking
Good to know. 
It's hard to tell anymore, though. There was a guy who made a 4 part video series 8 or so months ago who questioned whether the Kemper is ethical. At one point he suggested that people were buying amps specifically for profiling purposes and then turning around and selling them, in turn hurting amp manufacturers.
There was a guy who made a 4 part video series 8 or so months ago who questioned whether the Kemper is ethical. At one point he suggested that people were buying amps specifically for profiling purposes and then turning around and selling them, in turn hurting amp manufacturers.
I remember that one 
, I watched two minutes of his firs video and couldn't understand how others can bear to sit through one whole video, but a series of videos 
