Double Impact did some with their Ultimate Profile Bundle: includes "6 hybrid profiles of 2 amps through 2 cabs".
Dear profile sellers: please make "two-amps-blended-profiles"
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the Profile result will be just 1 Amp anyway....so it will be not the same as 2 amps blended.
not like 2 gainstructures..just 1.
You need to use 2 kempers...or in a recording situation just reamp 2 times with "constant latency)This.
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This.
Is this based on any kind of official statement, or is it speculation?
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its simple logic
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its simple logic
But how do you arrive at the conclusion?
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But how do you arrive at the conclusion?
The logic is that the profiler will mix and mingle two profiles to 'something unpredictable', the separation of the different entities will be completely lost and also their unique character. If it had worked, @and44 would have gone multi- amping long ago, bit his experiments lead nowhere IIRC.
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how should 1 Amp simulation sound like 2 Amps in paralell? 2 different gainstructures + maybe even 2 gainstages in paralell? Also paralell EQ..
Impossible
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The kemper takes a "black box" approach to profiling. Known input signal -> [black box] -> read-out of output signal. I can't see how you could deduce that the Kemper can't do this without knowing the internal workings and limitations of the process.
Especially for the EQ (since this is the simplest example): If I duplicate a track in my daw and add two different EQs - one to each copy - the summed result could be achieved using just a single EQ.
Regarding the term "gain structure" - what does this mean in real life, to you?
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for example a Rectifier and a Marshall...both have 2 very different gainstructurs...both will have a complete different lowend, Highend etc.
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There are existing dual amp rigs. Why discuss theory? Try the rigs
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@'Michael_dk just one axample, but imo you can hear what you missing with kemper profiles. Its about gain structure voicing gain character etc...
http://www.sinmix.pl/2015/11/2…east-realkemper-profiles/
Stay Metal!
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Not trying to be deliberately obtuse or anything, but I still haven't gotten an explanation of this term "gain structure"
Im thinking: the amp has a transfer function consisting of compression, EQ and generation of harmonics based on the input signal. If the KPA can reproduce this with just one amp (although @sinmix might argue that it can't do that perfectly, that's a bit besides the point for the present discussion) - why shouldn't it be able to do the same with a dual amp setup?
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Not trying to be deliberately obtuse or anything, but I still haven't gotten an explanation of this term "gain structure"
Im thinking: the amp has a transfer function consisting of compression, EQ and generation of harmonics based on the input signal. If the KPA can reproduce this with just one amp (although @sinmix might argue that it can't do that perfectly, that's a bit besides the point for the present discussion) - why shouldn't it be able to do the same with a dual amp setup?
Because your summng 2 sources into one, the kemper needs to mix this and to be able to replicate 2 different sources, and this it cant do..
Imagine you have a paint tin of Red on one side, and blue on the other. - soon as you mix them together they become blended and become a purple colour, this colour does not contain the same information as the red paint, nor the blue paint. - as 2 does not always go into 1.
Not to say it does not work on all sources, as I have tested this numerous times. to varying success, but generally, the profiler will need to "refine" something. and as the kemper cant "separate" its sources it does its best to mix/blend/sum however you want to call it. and this is often not an accurate representation of what your monitoring back from 2 individual sources. - you can use it however to create something unique!, different, or individual, im certainly not suggesting it profiles terrible. - but the profiler needs to listen to a mono source, and with lots of sources it will do its best to "average that out" but not an accurate snapshot as you see with single amps. - remember there are no rules!
Hope that makes sense a bit : )
And gain structure is how the gain is applied, via pre-amp distortion (clipping) or poweramp distortion (or both), generally, if you look at amps. - If they have a DRIVE knob, then it has poweramp dist. - if its just volume and master then its preamp.. (this is not concrete, but its a generally rule to follow with amps)
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Creating profiles by splitting the profiling signal and using different amps and cabs and joinining them together will not result in a "fuller" or "fatter" sound which might be associated with players using multiple amps which are not in phase like in a recording or live situation. In fact the differences in phase alignment when joining the signals is a challenge but also leaves room for creative experiments. Of course the result will be a normal profile of a single amp, this is how the profiler works. But the results might be a really good profile, maybe not.
I am be big fan of very broad and even sounding hi gain tones. By merging two amps you can get there easily if the amps and cabs complement each other. I think you can reach a more aggressive tone while using less gain, thus making the sound a little more transparent. Have a look at the Randall Satan, something similar is happening there, you can adjust the gain for the high and low frequencies indipendantly which is a great way to shape your tone and playing feel. -
I think personally it's a waste of time... Blending two signals into one mono signal will not create the tones you hear of blended amps/ doubled and quad tracked mono signals on a record. If you want to hear the tones of say, a Marshall blended with a recto, I think you'd come much closer playing a profile of a recto with EL34s, or better yet E34L's in the power amp, or my favorite KT77s. Something along those lines, coupled with the kempers ability technologically speaking to profile the nuances of a recto with a different poweramp feel like that, would yield better results than blending two amps into one mono signal for the Kemper to attempt to profile. Just my opinion.
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Pretty interesting!
But FOR ME it never supposed to sound like two amps in parallel.
I just like to have a symbiosis of VH4 and Mark V.
ONE new amp breed.
It was my fault to use the term "bi-amping".
And I was hoping to get the best of both worlds.
But now I see that the "blend" can´t be determined and the mixture could be the worst of both amps.
So I should look for another existing amp/profile that fits my needs.
Thank again for the discussion. -
IMO, better to mix diff mics,diff speakers,diff cabs than 2 diff amps This is give you more sounds (diff sounds) even if the same amp was used.
Stay Metal!
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how should 1 Amp simulation sound like 2 Amps in paralell? 2 different gainstructures + maybe even 2 gainstages in paralell? Also paralell EQ..
For the "the Kemper shall sound and react the same as the tube amps" people that seems right. But...
There are existing dual amp rigs. Why discuss theory? Try the rigs
... there are others who take the Kemper as a creative tool as well. Like trying to make a perfectly authentic profile even better - meaning different from the original amp. And then yes: even if the Kemper will not be able to do exatcly what it was built for, lets try it!
(When Jimi and others started to distort tube amps they where actually *not* being built for that or meant to sound like that!)
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We made six "blended-amp" profiles. Check "The ultimate profile bundle" @ http://www.kemperprofile.com
There is one in the free sample bundle on the website, or you can find it in the rig exchange called "Hybrid Mig800". Its a profile of a Marshall JCM800 and a Sovtek Mig100H -
This method is on our 'to-do' list ... However, as some have mentioned already - the results may not be as expected or turn out as desired (as you would expect to hear from plugging in to 2 separate amps with their own respective cabs using an ABY... due to phase relationship etc.) "bi-amping" as you mentioned...
However, as you have also mentioned; it may still deliver pleasing results of different aspects of each amp (where one particular amp has one strength and the 2nd particular amp has another - they may balance / complement each other ... Or they may not!!!)
Send us a direct message if you'd like to discuss....