Kemper vs. Real Amp Test - Cameron CCV

    Since you seem to think Kemper profiles are a lot different than the real amp, you should have little to no trouble identifying the profiler segments in the blind test thread I posted. Give it a shot.

    Quote from Bommel

    <X aaaaand unsubscribed ... this thread is doomed to stay unproductive and we're running in circles since more then 13 pages now

    I would like to focus on experiments for pre and post on the Kemper also. But this was a thread about comparing not adjusting. Start a new thread and I am on board with discussing ideas. :thumbup:

    Fine sentiments. However all these words do not in any way change the fact there is a very real issue with the KPA profiling that ultimately too often results in a deficiency not matching the original. In a way that is actually meaningful, not trivial. Period. No more debate needed. There are at least 3 sets of clips (between audio and video) that clearly demonstrate the issue, there is no "bias" or testing flaw in them, they are what they are.


    And nobody that I recall in this thread ever once said the KPA wasn't one of the best simulators presently available. That however in no way negates the existence of the issue we've been discussing, nor the value in doing so.


    Seriously, some of the Kemper disciples really need to check their bias at the door already and stop trying to divert, obfuscate, derail, bully or redirect discussions that involve sentiments they may find unflattering about the KPA.


    Sonic

    @ColdFrixion blind tests are redundant if they are made with amps that have the attributes i desribed soooo many times by now
    - less gain
    - no fuzz or creamy characteristics
    - not so much bass on the profiled amps ...


    now go and profile a bassy fuzzy vintage amp on a highgain setting!


    no profiles and sounds from the internet ... do it and be suprised ;)

    Like I said, if you think the average profile is easily identifiable because it's stiffer and has less body, then by all means demonstrate your ability to pick out the KPA if you can. Personally, I think the type of blind test I put together in that thread is a serious challenge, even for you. Seriously, it should be easy if KPA profiles are as simple to identify as you think they are.

    Quote from Michael_dk

    Well... To be fair, they were playing through a real guitar cab, AND the internal amp parameters had been adjusted a good deal. AND he said that he could tell the difference, but couldn't identify which was which.

    I can vouch for what I've seen. I'm not going to spam this thread by linking to the countless videos where users demonstrated how close or almost identical they have nailed their own amps in a studio setup.


    All anyone can do is google "kemper Nashville session" for starter and that was in August 2011.



    I know when I did my amp there was a small difference in the Bass tightness where the amp was tighter but with very little EQ, they were indistinguishable.


    That was on 3.0, if things have changed where the KPA is tighter now, I have no idea, but I think that we're splitting hairs here.

    Quote from SonicExporer

    However all these words do not in any way change the fact there is a very real issue with the KPA profiling that ultimately too often results in a deficiency not matching the original. In a way that is actually meaningful, not trivial. Period. No more debate needed.
    Sonic

    OK, so you're basing your final conclusion on one user's Sample out of hundreds of other users' samples that can prove the opposite.


    I didn't want to participate in this thread early on even though I listened to the Holly Diver clips and thought there was a difference (which isn't a good thing even By CK standards himself) where the KPA sounded better to me even though some others liked the AMP and Vice Versa. I knew and had no doubt they can be made to sound closer.


    I read the thread carefully and I knew it was just for fun and it wasn't anything scientific. That was also confirmed to all by the OP himself "WEB" who said in post # 45 of this thread :



    Webb:



    "This was just a quick, non-scientific test for fun. I think if I spent a little more time on it I could have gotten them closer"



    To me the single biggest difference between recordings of the Kemper and a real am is the room/air, essentially the subtle reverb, standing waves and comb filtering that you get from a real space in matter how close you mic.


    This can account for quite a lot of the difference that people notice, maybe not all, but in all probability the larger portion.


    I'm not saying that those complaining about harmonics or bass frequency response are wrong, but just that I suspect this is the bigger issue at hand. I fully support moves to get Kemper to improve their algorithm but critically here if we wanted to help Kemper then we have to be able to eliminate all bias and psychoacoustic effects from any examples and tests made, everything must be equal, equal dB, reamp through both rather than playing the same riff twice, tests with just the preamp DI to eliminate the room factor, every other variable needs to be eliminated, (don't forget to disable all noise gates etc on the Kemper) and then analyze the data and instead of placing it only in a mega thread that I doubt anyone from Kemper will read post it also to its own suggestion thread and also to Kemper Support directly.


    Help make Kemper better by giving solid useable data that the Kemper team can use to better their algorithm at the same time as not undermining your own credibility. Otherwise it's just he said she said.

    I agree.


    Furthermore, those used to the "amp in the room" sound are not hearing what comes out of the PA. I would imagine that anyone here could hear the difference between the amp, and what the FOH speakers produce.


    The issue (of course) with the "amp in the room" tone is that .... well, that isn't what the audience hears. The audience hears the FOH. I find it MUCH easier to get the KPA to sound good through the FOH than to get a tube amp to do the same. Furthermore, I have yet to plug my KPA in and suddenly have a very different sound than the last time I played .... which happened on many occasions with my VHT rig. Yet another big issue with tube amps is that the tone changes as the amp warms up.... not so with the KPA.


    IMO, all of these issues are light years bigger differentiators than any profiling differences are in a live environment.


    .... and to cut off the inevitable reprisal to this line of thinking, IMO anyone that doesn't mic their tube amp into a decent PA, but rather relies on the amp to fill the space is playing in a small-time setup which will never achieve the even coverage and over-all sound quality of bands that do run through the PA. In this capacity, the KPA is simply the greatest thing I have ever encountered for live sound.


    For LIVE applications, the rubber hits the road at FOH, not the recording of the amp.

    I agree, but I'd like, after 5 years of use of kpa, begin to record it in the studio and be totally happy.... Or its use is so complicated that after all this time I'm still unable to use it?
    well, of course I could be totally inept, but my ego prefers other solutions :D


    regard Live and pre-production, I have to admit that the kpa has made my life easier...thanks for this...

    Quote from FaZz

    I agree, but I'd like, after 5 years of use of kpa, begin to record it in the studio and be totally happy....

    Many if not all Guitar players are never happy with their tone and that has nothing to do with the Kemper, the guitar or the amp. I'm not implying that I know why I just happen to have observed this and find it to be the case with guitar players more so than other musicians.


    Here's a quote from Garry Moore (RIP) in an interview:



    Gary: "One of the guys from Metallica goes up to [producer] Bob Rock and says, 'This is the sound I want,' and plays him 'Oh Pretty Woman' from "Still Got The Blues". Then they proceed to go through all these pre-amps and processors to achieve it.
    I felt I should write and say, 'That's not how to do it. You've got the money now guys, go out and buy a '59 Les Paul, a Guv'nor pedal and a JTM45!"

    Sorry to digress but does anyone know of a good profile of a Guv'nor pedal and a JTM45?

    The point is though the issue is not isolated at all, it is all over the place Myself and a number of other users within this thread have encountered it first hand, and more users than just the OP posted clips in this thread. If you cannot accept those facts it's your own personal problem, it doesn't change the fact the issue is real. And it is not trivial for recording purposes either.


    Out of the hundreds of clips and users out there, I've seen very few do much to explain hardly any tips and tricks for the refining process (beyond the blatantly obvious) nor refining nor post-tweaking. Seriously. If you have any substantive material beyond the skimpy information in the manual then please share.


    And if there's by chance some kind of acoustic effect at play that isn't' being captured during the refining process then Kemper should be providing some insight and guidance on that, otherwise this issue will just keep plaguing users.

    @Dean_R
    On the contrary, I am very happy with my tone, I do not like that the KPA for some holistic reason does not represent (for me) his soul... that's it.
    until some time ago, in any record session, I profiled my amps and those of my clients, then recorded simultaneously reference and profile track in the project, but now I have stop this process because at last I always chosed the reference track. I'm talking about at least fifty recordings...and again maybe I'm totally inept...

    Once you're able to hear the differences, you get better at being able to pick out the KPA over time. However, with well-made profiles I have to really listen critically and, in my opinion, if you have to really focus and strain to hear something, it's trivial.

    Quote from SonicExporer

    The point is though the issue is not isolated at all, it is all over the place Myself and a number of other users within this thread have encountered it first hand...

    I'm going by the opening post Where WEBB said it was for fun and that he could get it closer if he spent more time.


    Well, I do recall him taking a second attempt at getting it closer and he posted the second attempt. You yourself acknowledged that he got closer in his second attempt, and asked him how!! so I'm not sure how you concluded that there's an issue with KPA not getting the profile to close to the real amp.


    All I'm saying is this is your personal experience and it's not necessarily a true reflection of what the KPA is capable of since many users are getting pretty damn close.


    I listened to WEBBS second attempt and I thought it's pretty damn close aside from the level or volume issue.


    Actually his second attempt is a pretty good and I would think that guitar players would be thrilled to get this close (I bet you if you level the volume for both, it's pretty impressive)

    @'ColdFrixion
    'in all these years I have always believed to be focused on how the mix sounds. also because customers pay when they are satisfied with the work
    no time to play with toys Unfortunately


    at the end, if I understand correctly, the kpa is very difficult to use for some common mortals like us ... thank goodness! I'm not the only sucker :wacko: