Not possible with the KPA?

    Quote from Awesome_Elvis

    have you tried the character parameter in the cab section all the way turned up? Turn it all the way up, edit till you get that complex raspy snarl ( I hear it now) then turn the character knob back. You might wanna use headphones to do this. Maybe even dj headphones, no joke.

    Thanks for the input. Yes, Cab tweaks can be helpful, been messing with that quite a bit as well. However I'm hearing the opposite terminology. It seems you likely ARE in fact hearing what I'm referring to, but that thing you refer to as rasp is part of what comes out of cranked tube amp. It's a form of harmonic gain content, but it's NOT in the KPA that I've heard so far. What I hear as "rasp" is instead in the KPA. It's a buzzy/scratchy kind of content that is different and sounds fabricated. It's that aspect, and the missing snarl/growl, that makes the KPA sound more fake IMO in comparison to the real thing for these types of tones so far.


    Once you start training your ears to recognize these core tone elements, what I've been describing (and a few others as well) will become rather apparent. It isn't about EQ or about compression or about any other excuses floated around. It the core tone structure that simply isn't right. Again, this doesn't prove whether the problem is in the KPA, the existing profiles, or both, but that's what this thread is about, trying to understand how to replicate these types of tones, if even possible.


    Sonic

    The only way to determine if the KPA can, or cant, profile a specific sound/amp.......is to profile that specific sound/amp.
    The only way to get consensus on the existense of a possible issue in the result of that exercise is to share exact methods, so otheres can reproduce the result themselves.


    I really dont get how threads like this continue without this tbh....

    Quote from Job Posthuma

    The only way to determine if the KPA can, or cant, profile a specific sound/amp.......is to profile that specific sound/amp.
    The only way to get consensus on the existense of a possible issue in the result of that exercise is to share exact methods, so otheres can reproduce the result themselves.

    There are other helpful paths, such as maybe somebody has already profiled such tones. They can share clips and/or the profile name and/or the methodology. Or maybe others have readily available access to rigs of the era and are willing to help with profiling tests. Or maybe there's some kind of profiling procedure to be shared that is relevant. Or maybe somebody has insight into tweaks or post processing to try with existing profiles. Or external factors (pedals, whatever) These are just some of the many possibilities off the top of my head.


    Sonic

    With all respect, Sonic, you've spent a lot of your time on the forum telling other people what they need to bring to you. Meanwhile, there is a rational point to be made that if you already have those tones at your finger tips, the purpose of the Kemper is to profile. So, profile.


    Yes, I get that there are "congestion issues" as they've come to be called, but there are also some profilers that have managed to mitigate at least some of those effects, I'm sure through many hours of experimentation. Consider how many hours you've spent on the forum discussing the issue while not attempting to resolve it. This isn't meant to be rude, but is likely the very reason you're about to give up in complete frustration. Nobody else can capture the sound that's in your head because it's in your head, and it's not fair to yourself or others to expect that.


    We keep going around and around with asking you to update the Kemper to the latest FW, profile the amps that have the tone you want, and a litany of other examples. At every turn those are rejected and your reasoning is somebody should bring forth to you what you are requesting because you think it would have already been done by now. It's shown to be a completely impossible task, so all are left running in endless circles over this issue.


    At this point it seems obvious the only option is to profile your amps and use the hours you would have had in frustration on this forum towards gaining ground on mitigating the KPA's issues, or sell your Kemper. Not doing that and continuing another marathon thread isn't going to accomplish anything to either satisfaction but will only manage to waste your and everyone else's time, respectfully.

    Quote from SonicExporer

    There are other helpful paths, such as maybe somebody has already profiled such tones. They can share clips and/or the profile name and/or the methodology. Or maybe others have readily available access to rigs of the era and are willing to help with profiling tests. Or maybe there's some kind of profiling procedure to be shared that is relevant. Or maybe somebody has insight into tweaks or post processing to try with existing profiles. Or external factors (pedals, whatever) These are just some of the many possibilities off the top of my head.
    Sonic

    Nothing wrong with the "heart" of what your saying here.


    Where the trouble may start is "such tones", rigs of the era, external factors, etc. Those terms leave room for a lot of interpretation, which is risky when mixed with a very factual question you seem to trigger...can the KPA reproduce tones.


    I bet if you would ask ppl here if they would profile amp [x] with settings [at eleven] and share a recording/reamp and profile here...you would get it in a heartbeat from this community, followed by constructive arguments on the results.


    My 2 cents.

    MM, I respect your opinion, but some of what you said is not right.


    The tones on two of the most popular 80's metal releases are in my head? Hardly.


    And for the umpteenth time, the tone is not at my fingertips, it would require significant time and money for me to try to capture them into the KPA, and unless I can see some concrete evidence the KPA can reach profile those tones I'm not about to risk that path. I've already explained all this earlier in the thread.


    Agreed, time to sell the KPA if indeed nobody can produce anything that sounds real WRT the types of tones I'm after. Again, it isn't just one amp or rig, it's a style that again I have yet to hear anybody replicate out of the KPA.


    Saying the device can do it, or blaming me, does not make it so. At is stands, nothing and nobody has demonstrated the KPA can do the tones in question.


    Sonic

    Quote from Job Posthuma

    Nothing wrong with the "heart" of what your saying here.
    Where the trouble may start is "such tones", rigs of the era, external factors, etc. Those terms leave room for a lot of interpretation, which is risky when mixed with a very factual question you seem to trigger...can the KPA reproduce tones.


    I bet if you would ask ppl here if they would profile amp [x] with settings [at eleven] and share a recording/reamp and profile here...you would get it in a heartbeat from this community, followed by constructive arguments on the results.


    My 2 cents.

    I have detailed the basics of the setup, it is about as straightforward as it gets IMO in terms of setting up the rig aspect. The idea was, in part, what you are expressing, thinking maybe someone has done this already, or has a setup to easily try it. I'm not hearing that so far. If you are suggesting I post another thread specifically making the request then I suppose that's an option for me to consider before throwing in the towel.

    Quote from SonicExporer

    @ColdFrixion


    You continue to make assumptions that aren't true, draw conclusions based on those false assumptions, and haven't even profiled an amp before (per your own acknowledgement). Many of the statements you have made clearly demonstrate a complete lack of understanding on multiple levels IMO, and I wouldn't be surprised if you never even stepped foot in a real studio.

    In fact, I've recorded multiple projects over the course of several years in the oldest continuously operated studio in the southeastern United States. Though I've profiled the Axe FX, I don't profile amps because I don't use them, however it goes without saying there are countless members of this forum who don't go to a studio to profile their amps. Feel free to delineate what it is you think I don't understand, though.


    Quote from SonicExporer

    The fact you haven't heard any Dio tones with real amps proves nothing, just another diversion, a tangentially related opinion that is nearly meaningless.

    I openly stated it proves nothing, and that's the point; just because you haven't heard certain tones from a real amp, Kemper, Axe FX or any other modeler doesn't prove anything.

    Quote from SonicExporer

    And for the umpteenth time, the tone is not at my fingertips, it would require significant time and money for me to try to capture them into the KPA, and unless I can see some concrete evidence the KPA can reach profile those tones I'm not about to risk that path. I've already explained all this earlier in the thread.

    Right, you don't mind investing three months worth of time, effort and money (and the KPA wasn't free itself) rummaging through other people's profiles but can't spare a day to make your own.

    Quote from SonicExporer

    The tones on two of the most popular 80's metal releases are in my head? Hardly.

    Not trying to be cheeky, but what I meant was one person can hear a tone and think "that's it!" while another can think "not even close!". Some could offer up a profile they think sounds close but in all likelihood you'd probably not think it was good enough. Again, not being cheeky, but you have an incredibly specific ear and preference.

    Quote from SonicExporer

    And for the umpteenth time, the tone is not at my fingertips, it would require significant time and money for me to try to capture them into the KPA, and unless I can see some concrete evidence the KPA can reach profile those tones I'm not about to risk that path. I've already explained all this earlier in the thread.

    Yes, I've read it, and read it on other threads because people keep bringing it up, but it's your reasoning that eventually brings people back to this question. Sorting through other profiles requires significant time and money itself, as did the process the profiler went through. The KPA also required significant money and the time you've spent on the forum is by no means insignificant. This is of course entirely up to you, but you can understand how some here are scratching their heads at your refusal.

    I'm not going to spend much time on this because I'm not crazy about the tone, but this is a quick and dirty tone match of the right channel from Rainbow In The Dark using one of Guido Bungenstock's Peavey JSX profiles. The biggest difference is that the EQ match doesn't have the pumping that's rife in the original. The actual playing is undoubtedly going to be a factor that influences the tone, as well.


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    Quote from Awesome_Elvis

    I think I have some close tones to what's being asked for. Ironically, I've been looking for a similar thing. How do I send my rigs which are mostly snapshots?

    Just zip those tones up and use the "Attachments" feature in the posting window, Elvis.

    green scream in front
    Character knob 5.0
    Studio eq after cab
    Recti shaper after the studio eq with low low gain and +1 or more volume
    Amp settings around noon on average
    Eq stack may need extreme values.


    It's gonna take some time to find the right cab.


    I have to convert my snapshots to actual rigs and I don't really feel like doing that right now, plus putting them in a zip folder, dropbox link etc.


    The sound is hard to get and it's very similar in contour to the tone I was referring to that I posted a YouTube link to and then you offered no actual help and an insulting lame joke that's probably older than double the age of the tone that's seemingly elusive.


    But it's all good, I'm still gonna try to help. I will throw every trick I can think of to try to make this work. Or! In my opinion, make it better than the original.


    Any rigs I post will be a starting point, and there's a lot of them. You'll have to spend the time playing with them.


    Oh and p.s. you'll have to probably turn off or down the gates, and ridiculous delay and reverb settings which are not subject for debate.

    Quote from ColdFrixion

    I'm not going to spend much time on this because I'm not crazy about the tone, but this is a quick and dirty tone match of the right channel from Rainbow In The Dark using one of Guido Bungenstock's Peavey JSX profiles. The biggest difference is that the EQ match doesn't have the pumping that's rife in the original. The actual playing is undoubtedly going to be a factor that influences the tone, as well.


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    Not bad, but still missing that harsh, trebly upper mid bite I fear. I think I get what Sonic is on about. To my ears, it reminds me of the crunch you get when using a Waves L1 limiter too heavily (obviously that isn't how they achieved that sound back in the day). The pumping and snappy attack makes me think (again) that heavier compression would get it 15% closer. Interesting...

    Quote from sambrox

    Not bad, but still missing that harsh, trebly upper mid bite I fear. I think I get what Sonic is on about. To my ears, it reminds me of the crunch you get when using a Waves L1 limiter too heavily (obviously that isn't how they achieved that sound back in the day). The pumping and snappy attack makes me think (again) that heavier compression would get it 15% closer. Interesting...

    In my opinion, the added pumping and snappy attack isn't a product of the amp so much as engineering prowess. I have little doubt it was added in post after the fact, much the way engineers add a similar pumping and snappy attack to percussion. If someone can show me an amp reacting like this in a raw recording, I'm all ears. For instance, listen to live performances of Rainbow In The Dark. You won't hear the pumping or snappy attack. The dynamics are fairly consistent.

    Quote from sambrox

    The pumping and snappy attack makes me think (again) that heavier compression would get it 15% closer.


    Quote from ColdFrixion

    In my opinion, the added pumping and snappy attack isn't a product of the amp so much as engineering prowess. I have little doubt it was added in post after the fact, much the way engineers add a similar pumping and snappy attack to percussion


    Quote from Monkey_Man

    I assume Sonic has tried heavy-handed compression with slow attack and release times in his mixing experiments.


    IMHO, this sort of compression is important to help emulate that tube-saggy sound and to get it to pump and breathe as we heard in the clip. However, he insists it's a frequency-response / breakup-tonality issue that he's super-sensitive to, and I've no reason to doubt him.

    Seems like we agree, fellas.


    Quote from Monkey_Man

    If it were me, I'd just carve the bottom end out and lay on the aforementioned heavy compression during mixing, and probably use a lower Definition setting on the KPA and crank the tube sag and amp-compression parameters for more vintage goodness.

    This is all well-and-good, but I believe Sonic believes he's hearing through the pumping. I simply can't, but that doesn't mean he can't either.