Also (and I held out a long time on this... wish I hadn't) start looking into IR's for the cab(s)/speaker(s) you are trying to profile. I just got the Redwirez Matchless ESD2x12 IR packs and they made a huge difference with the Matchless profile I'm using. I don't even need the Lo/High cuts after the amp anymore for recording. I keep the EQ there though, and use it live at 85hz/10khz so my place in the mix is a little better defined.
Are you converting the IR and loading into kemper?
Also (and I held out a long time on this... wish I hadn't) start looking into IR's for the cab(s)/speaker(s) you are trying to profile. I just got the Redwirez Matchless ESD2x12 IR packs and they made a huge difference with the Matchless profile I'm using. I don't even need the Lo/High cuts after the amp anymore for recording. I keep the EQ there though, and use it live at 85hz/10khz so my place in the mix is a little better defined.
I have had a quick look for these ir's, where do I find them? Can only see 2 products on their website.
Are you converting the IR and loading into kemper?
Yes, with the Kemper Cab Maker. The only frustration is that the Cab Maker can only convert files with names less than 32 characters.
I have had a quick look for these ir's, where do I find them? Can only see 2 products on their website.
Look under "Products" and just keep scrolling down. They're all here: Redwirez
So in this video I'd argue that the fizz factor is the most noticeable I've heard it (posted over at Gearslutz)
If you go to around the 2:14 mark and listen, and then really listen in the mix with backing track that happens immediately after the dry comparison. Really listen to the stereo sound between the two, I find it quite noticeable with cans listening especially to the left side, there's almost like an aliasing sound in the treble or, or like the treble is super compressed or something, it's a a bubbling treble sound that once you hear you'll be able to identify.
There's also to be fair quite a difference in the bass end in the sections without backing track when muting etc happens, the real amp has quite a wide warm oomph to it while the Kemper seems to keep it to a much more narrow frequency range and not have as pronounced a rumble.
Now of course you can always just EQ the snot out of it, but this is a straight side by side and if captured well it really should sound the same with the same amount of fizz and bass and all the rest. I'm really hoping that if we can find good examples then this stuff could be used by Christoph and his team to identify if there is an issue, perhaps with the profiling process itself, perhaps with the sim, perhaps with the cab section, that they can then fix this so that we all benefit from even Realerer(tm) profiles.
Display MoreSo in this video I'd argue that the fizz factor is the most noticeable I've heard it (posted over at Gearslutz)
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If you go to around the 2:14 mark and listen, and then really listen in the mix with backing track that happens immediately after the dry comparison. Really listen to the stereo sound between the two, I find it quite noticeable with cans listening especially to the left side, there's almost like an aliasing sound in the treble or, or like the treble is super compressed or something, it's a a bubbling treble sound that once you hear you'll be able to identify.
There's also to be fair quite a difference in the bass end in the sections without backing track when muting etc happens, the real amp has quite a wide warm oomph to it while the Kemper seems to keep it to a much more narrow frequency range and not have as pronounced a rumble.
Now of course you can always just EQ the snot out of it, but this is a straight side by side and if captured well it really should sound the same with the same amount of fizz and bass and all the rest. I'm really hoping that if we can find good examples then this stuff could be used by Christoph and his team to identify if there is an issue, perhaps with the profiling process itself, perhaps with the sim, perhaps with the cab section, that they can then fix this so that we all benefit from even Realerer(tm) profiles.
Direct profiles "suffer" from the same innacuracies. It's the same the vast majority of the time. How much they are noticed largely depends on playing variation imho. There have been quite comprehensive tests done. I'd know, much of the time being seen like beezlebub, Dracula, the leviathan, demogorgon and so forth, or God forbid, an axe user.
..... I'd know, much of the time being seen like beezlebub, Dracula, the leviathan, demogorgon and so forth, or God forbid, an axe user.
LOL that's pretty funny considering that you actually also own and AXE FX, Don't get too sensitive Dimi or take this stuff too seriously, it's only gear. Let's see if the upcoming update makes things better (I'm guessing we're due for some update soon.
I have to say however that I tried profiling last night, after a couple of years of doing no profiling, and it seems that the Refining process have gotten much better at getting even closer to the reference amp.
LOL that's pretty funny considering that you actually also own and AXE FX, Don't get too sensitive Dimi or take this stuff too seriously, it's only gear. Let's see if the upcoming update makes things better (I'm guessing we're due for some update soon.
I have to say however that I tried profiling last night, after a couple of years of doing no profiling, and it seems that the Refining process have gotten much better at getting even closer to the reference amp.
I don't own an axe, just used one for a few project, then borrowed. Axe fx is very expensive here, almost double The price of kpa before.
And yes, Dean, (not sure how to quote from phone properly) I agree kemper has gotten better with the profiling. When I had my first kemper (a long time ago) I had to refine much more than I did when I got another unit and joined forum. It could be that eventually refining stage is not needed at all. Maybe I'd even miss that, if it's eventually phased out at some point, because I use it for eq matches, hoho!
https://forum.fractalaudio.com…townsend-part-1-2.132432/
"Although the heavy sound was good, I couldn’t seem to dial in a low end presence that I missed. It wasn’t an eq thing, it was a depth thing. The sounds in the Kemper were really satisfying to me, but still…it was not the Mesa and the problems were in the low and low mid areas. The Soundpeople we were working with said the same."
This was quoted from a recent write up from Devin Townsend, and seems he has the same issue thats been reported time and time again here. That even though the Kemper is very close its still far away, I find it annoying as the profiling ability of the unit is its leverage in the market and there does need to be an update. I found this interview with Cristoph and it started to make me wonder if he is happy where it stands and really wants to or has the time to perfect the core of the unit, interview starts around 6:55
I'm not sure i would classify the Kemper as fizzy (at least with the profiles i use). There are definitely a lot of profiles that are too trebly (as complained about). My two big complaints with the Kemper are with a lot of high gain profiles i get a clicking type of sound (hard to describe) on the low E when chugging. Much more obvious when tuned down (like it's too compressed or too sensitive to string touch). The second is on open chords especially (most noticeably a D sus chord) there is almost a synth like tone. This I hear on almost all mid-high gain profiles in existence.
https://forum.fractalaudio.com…townsend-part-1-2.132432/
"Although the heavy sound was good, I couldn’t seem to dial in a low end presence that I missed. It wasn’t an eq thing, it was a depth thing. The sounds in the Kemper were really satisfying to me, but still…it was not the Mesa and the problems were in the low and low mid areas. The Soundpeople we were working with said the same."
This was quoted from a recent write up from Devin Townsend, and seems he has the same issue thats been reported time and time again here. That even though the Kemper is very close its still far away, I find it annoying as the profiling ability of the unit is its leverage in the market and there does need to be an update. I found this interview with Cristoph and it started to make me wonder if he is happy where it stands and really wants to or has the time to perfect the core of the unit, interview starts around 6:55
, now given this interview is from 2013 I think about the updates done, delays and effects have been upgraded, good glad to see they found the issue there but all their custom effects have issues OD's are far from being on it, and the ability to profile a direct amp was great but as stated its still far from perfect. I see Cliff with Fractal updating allot, now given their unit needs those updates and took them a long time to get on par but they are getting there fast, maybe cause his time is dedicated to 1 thing, but if the Kemper perfected the core amp modeling and even could move on then to tonestack modeling it would be unstoppable.External Content www.youtube.comContent embedded from external sources will not be displayed without your consent.Through the activation of external content, you agree that personal data may be transferred to third party platforms. We have provided more information on this in our privacy policy.
I wouldn't say kemper is "far away" (important to keep perspective, I think, not that you just say it's far away) from source tone but there is not something new about this stuff. It's been documented quite well way before I joined forum and did tests myself too, and before Townsend's conclusions (who, for a long time, had not profiled amps).
So like I have said for a long time now also... for me the difference between kpa and source tone can matter.
This is why I have hoped for updates on profiling accuracy. However conclusion of kemper was that there are only issues when dual stages are distorting. Consequently I didn't hope for more on that end. Personally I did what I could to contribute, with the sole motivation being to help along the process at that point.
So I disagreed with their conclusion.
However all this never meant I cannot use kemper, ect, ect. Just last time I recorded a guitarist (a pretty damn good player for that matter) because he was quite dissatisfied with tone they got in studio. It didn't take long to find profiles that sounded way better than the miced up tone they themselves were able to get with producer.
This is a massive plus of kemper for me. It's the same for my uses. Yes, knowing my amp very well, and using right cab + mic (or IR) I feel better using that than the profile, for reasons similar to Townsend. They are subtle reasons. But some times they are enough to sway me when it's easy to use the amp (many times it's not, btw).
That said whenever I need a different tone, and that has happened quite often, if I'm working with somebody else, and even in my own music some of the time, kemper comes into play -- and quite often profiles are better than what I could accomplish myself, being in an unknown environment, new studio probably, with amps I don't know well either, mics.
And that is true even me being relatively knowledgeable about amps, pickups. So I have kept kemper.
Of course none of this is to say I don't want to see progress made. There is still a gap between profile and source tone, however small it is. It is enough to be perceptible for me, even if at times even I can be confused. Some argue that if the audience cannot tell the difference that's all that matters. It is not my view.
So considering what the goal of kemper is, it is only consequent for me, that it would make "conceptual" sense, per se, to try and bridge the gap that remains.... However small, at least when it comes to what humans can perceive.
Also I think, considering the main topic of the OP, it should be stressed as much as possible that profiling a tone that works for oneself is massively important for kemper. If someone say they cannot get a particular tone out of kemper I try, again and again, to push them to do their own tones (not on forum, I mean in "real life", as I do deal with musicians, like most here).
So often issues with tone are about the wrong source tones to begin with, not kemper's accuracy. Of course, this also doesn't mean that I don't still prefer my amp tone to the profile.
Cheerios
This I hear on almost all mid-high gain profiles in existence.
I have done tests with different string height in order to bring out more guitar buzz. The more guitar buzz I had, the more I could sense the difference between profile and real amp. I don't have video or audio about this, so take my comment with a grain of pepper.
But it could be worth seeing how high/low your action is? Comparing to source tone vs profile would be the action to take to see if it's indeed kemper's fault, as well, what you are experiencing.
i think it's heavily influenced by pickups as well, i have 1987 BC Rich that i broke out recently to record some stuff in Drop C, primarily because both of my Ernie Ball Guitars were really bothering me with this type of noise. Here was a clip i did to capture some of it (some profiles are even worse)...it's in no way musical...just trying to emphasize the sound.
i think it's heavily influenced by pickups as well, i have 1987 BC Rich that i broke out recently to record some stuff in Drop C, primarily because both of my Ernie Ball Guitars were really bothering me with this type of noise. Here was a clip i did to capture some of it (some profiles are even worse)...it's in no way musical...just trying to emphasize the sound.
Do you have amps to profile? If so, worth it to use that pickup at same height and A/B carefully and see if the issue is there in both amp and kemper.
imo the missing thing is parallel distortion and not quite right compression ... i made so many profiles by now and when i made the comparisons afterwards the main difference wasthat the kemper often had spikes the orignial didn't have and the effects of the gainstaging are missing ...
the tc body rez brings back a lot of the flavour of the real amp as well as adding a real overdrive in front of the kemper
and watch this video from 41:00 min this is exactly what i'm talking about ...
I can't do it right now, but i plan to...I was trying to finish a semi-sound proofed room in my home but so far it's fell through, and i also have been looking at getting a load box or some other way to do direct or IR types of profiles. Also, unfortunately my main amp is a Peavey XXX (which without a mod can't be profiled due to noise suppression in the head) and I also have an Egnater MTS Preamp system with a Peavey Classic 50/50 poweramp and an original ADA MP1 and an old Fender Princeton that's not working well these days. When i can crank it up and get some free time i will definately try making my own.
I would say it's there at a much lower level in the amp's/tube preamps, but amplified when playing with the Kemper.
I just think that there is still some room for improvement in the Kemper, don't get me wrong it's phenomenal and I love it to bits but it's not perfect, and I'm glad there are threads like this in the forum where people do get into the nitty gritty of that last 5%, even if Kemper don't fix it these threads give insights that can help us when doing our own mixes and setting up our own rigs in order to mitigate the issue if it bothers us.
@Dimi - I didn't mean to be rude, I wasn't trying to get at you by posting the video, it's just that for me it's the first example where it's really very apparent in even a lower gain sort of tone.
@Dimi - I didn't mean to be rude, I wasn't trying to get at you by posting the video, it's just that for me it's the first example where it's really very apparent in even a lower gain sort of tone.
Oh not at all interpreted that way, no issue.
Display Moreimo the missing thing is parallel distortion and not quite right compression ... i made so many profiles by now and when i made the comparisons afterwards the main difference wasthat the kemper often had spikes the orignial didn't have and the effects of the gainstaging are missing ...
the tc body rez brings back a lot of the flavour of the real amp as well as adding a real overdrive in front of the kemper
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fizz is gone and it is creamier immediatly ...
and watch this video from 41:00 min this is exactly what i'm talking about ...
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When you say "gain staging" are you referring to multiple distorting stages (as in preamp vs power amp) or within preamp itself?
I have not still tried the body rez. I want to order one eventually to see what happens while comparing profile to real amp. From what I hear it does help with some perceptions of "fizz". But I am not sure how it fares when it comes to matching the amp tone further.
When you say "gain staging" are you referring to multiple distorting stages (as in preamp vs power amp) or within preamp itself?
yeah absolutely 
I have not still tried the body rez. I want to order one eventually to see what happens while comparing profile to real amp. From what I hear it does help with some perceptions of "fizz". But I am not sure how it fares when it comes to matching the amp tone further.
well imo the body rez doesn' help soo much to get closer to the orignial but it is helping making the sounds more "natural" or "real" it is hard to explain, mybe you know what i mean ? it doesn't sound more like my victory kraken but less digital/cold/static
meanwhile use it also with my real amps ... it makes bitey strats fatter ... evens out the sound differencies between pickups, so the FOH guy gets a more consistent signal ... it is overall a great tool in my eyes ...
i still hope they add a poweramp sim new creamier stomp boxes and maybe a simulation of the body rez ... or simply a multiband comp with at least 4 regions
