I'm Clueless (in more ways than one)

    Hi All!


    Reasonably long Kemper user here and ardent supporter of the brand as I believe that it does nearly exactly what it says it does; profile an existing amp signal chain and deliver that to you in a repeatable, reliable, and tweakable package. That being said I'm at a complete loss on 1 aspect of the experience...the one sitting in front of my computer while practicing or creating. I hear the youtube videos of profiles that sound great. Great tones that reasonably faithfully reproduce the original...and that's where the problem starts.


    Take this for example:

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    In this video from Tone Junkies they state within the comment section that "Cesar Romero Hey Caesar! None, the audio you are hearing is from the guitar plugged directly into a Kemper running into the Universal Audio Apollo you can see on the desk and into logic. No post eqs or effects are used ever. If you have any of these guitars or similar these are the same tones you can get if almost no effort." I try and try and try and even though I have nearly the exact same gear (e.g. nearly identical guitar and pups -> kemper -> apollo -> logic I NEVER can get the tone that they achieve. Everything, on every profile, comes through my CMS 65s, sounding flat and thin. I play the Youtube clip through those same speakers and wow it sounds great. I play my actual guitar through the above signal chain and it sounds like a cheap facsimile of the profile. That's why the comment gets me. How is it possible if there is nothing being done to the profile on their or anyone else's end (no eq'ing, no added effects, no added compression, no mastering) that the clips sound great and the same profile played through nearly identical gear sounds...sad in person. I've tried mucking around with the definition, the clean and distortion sens, the output values, pure cab, etc all to no avail. Further, and I understand that this is most likely a case of mastering, the youtube videos and sound clips are ALWAYS louder than I can dream of getting the Kemper to be. I need to turn my Apollo up to >75% of max volume to get close to the same level of volume from a simple youtube video.


    I realize that these problems are because of my own errors somewhere, I just have no idea where. I'm not expecting the "amp in the room sound" whatsoever because I know that a) that's not what you're hearing on any record and b) it's not what the kemper does but I am expecting to be able to readily replicate the tone that I hear from a youtube video. I have a reasonably extensive collection of guitars to match nearly anything anyone puts out there. I also understand that picking dynamics contribute to the tone but that doesn't account for the "flat and thinness" of the profiles living on my system.


    Any help from anyone would be greatly appreciated. My tone is good now...I just want it to be great and I know the Kemper is capable of delivering it. I just need the help on my end to make it happen.


    Thanks so much for reading this missive and I look forward to any and all suggestions, and yes flames for being a moron.


    P.S. - I'm not calling out Tone Junkies whatsoever. I'm sure they're doing exactly what they say they are doing and I love their profiles. I just want to be able to sound reasonably close to what I hear when I buy the profile.

    Ummm...yeah...

    I don't want to be "that" guy, but... a lot of the tone is in your fingers. Also the guitar you're using vs what they are using in the clip. Sorry, I honestly don't want to sound insulting or condescending, you very well might be the best player on the forum.


    Could you post a clip of what is happening to compare to the TJ clip?


    I have some of those profiles and thought they sounded great. I'm considering buying the whole pack.

    I wish I could claim the title of best guitarist but that's never going to happen haha.

    Quote from audiomitch

    I don't want to be "that" guy, but... a lot of the tone is in your fingers. Also the guitar you're using vs what they are using in the clip. Sorry, I honestly don't want to sound insulting or condescending, you very well might be the best player on the forum.


    Could you post a clip of what is happening to compare to the TJ clip?


    I have some of those profiles and thought they sounded great. I'm considering buying the whole pack.

    I totally agree that one component of tone is in the fingers. It's also in the plectrum (or lack thereof), the wood, the pups, the cable has an impact (think coiled vs straight), the attack strength, martians (no offense to any martians). You aren't coming across as insulting or condescending, just making sure I'm covering all bases and it's appreciated :).


    I don't know that a clip is going to resolve it although I could certainly do one. Might help point some things out. I'll work on something quick and get it up here.

    Ummm...yeah...

    Like 1
    Quote from 808illest

    Yeah, post a clip if possible. :thumbup:


    They did say that they raise the reverb and delay levels but I wouldn't think that would be why you aren't achieving desired results.

    I noted what they said about the effects levels and completely get why they'd do that but you're right in that it really doesn't speak to the overall question that I have.

    Ummm...yeah...

    Quote from paults

    He uses the internal FX in the KPA very well in his demos and profiles. That could be what you are missing with other profiles.


    He also uses the volume knob on the guitar - it is not always turned up all the way. You may do this, too - but, I’m mentioning this, in case you don’t.


    What guitars are you using?

    I'm going straight profile to equivalent profile so that should take that out of the "mix" so to speak. I agree that the volume knob, as well as what pickup is being used, has a lot to do with the overall tone. I noticed that on several of the "clips" when he's on a strat he's using position 4 to get that "quack" with a thicker bottom end or position 5.


    As for guitars: 60th anniversary strat, John Mayer signature strat, 52 reissue kona tele, 68 335 with wizz pups, setzer signature 6120, starplayer tv, ronin badmoon, etc. For this particular comparison I'm using one of the two aforementioned strats or the tele. I don't have a jazzmaster, suhr or otherwise. On to making a clip!

    Ummm...yeah...

    Quote from paults

    If you use a Kemper Factory Rig (or something from a Kemper Rig Pack), it will be a rig that everyone will have to compare to your clip.

    I've uploaded a clip that is a poor rendition of what he does at about 6:38. I'm using the exact same profile, no modifications, into Logic 10.4, new project no modifications, directly bounced to a 320 kbps VBR mp3. I'm using my John Mayer Signature as it looks like he's using the new PRS JM Signature.


    Here's the clip: Super Dark Majik J4 Plus Tone Compare

    Ummm...yeah...

    Your clip sounds like it has a little more low end and gain (which could be a difference in guitars or pickup height and type) and perhaps like you are hitting the strings a little bit harder. If you turn your guitar down a bit more, does it sweeten up, and sound more like the clip?


    If his rig contains the same effects as in the demo clip, try turning them up a little bit more - that may be the other thing you are missing. If you like them, copy them to priests, and you can use them with other rigs :)

    Quote from paults

    Your clip sounds like it has a little more low end and gain (which could be a difference in guitars or pickup height and type) and perhaps like you are hitting the strings a little bit harder. If you turn your guitar down a bit more, does it sweeten up, and sound more like the clip?


    If his rig contains the same effects as in the demo clip, try turning them up a little bit more - that may be the other thing you are missing. If you like them, copy them to priests, and you can use them with other rigs :)

    Here ya go :) Two new clips with the guitar at different volume levels (7 and 8 respectively). I also more widely varied my attack in several places and snapped the strings a couple of times as well just to get different nuances.


    Volume at 8


    Volume at 7

    Ummm...yeah...

    Quote from 808illest

    I hear much more reverb/delay, on their clip. Like @paults mentioned, try turning them up a bit?


    Are you in position 5 on the Strat, that will undoubtedly brighten it up. Looks like he's using that bridge pup.


    Sounds pretty good though Rich. ;)

    Yep running in what I call position 1 (bridge). I could turn up the effects a bit to compensate for being unaccompanied as that would definitely add some depth and help to gloss over the crappy playing.. I do realize that I'll never be able to match it 100% given all the variables, the videos that they have on their site that talk about the definition control was an epiphany for me and would apply here because I hear some of the glassy character that's missing that would be helped by it.. I really appreciate just having other ears listening and providing me with a sounding board. Hopefully what I'll find is that it's largely "just me" and my ears in this room listening and that others when listening to the same thing here something very similar as to what's on the video. Part of my problem too is that the whole volume thing I can't figure out which means that I hear much much more "acoustic electric" than electric because i can't get the volume loud. I appreciate what you and @paults have helped me with thus far.

    Ummm...yeah...

    Quote from lookitsrich

    I've uploaded a clip that is a poor rendition of what he does at about 6:38. I'm using the exact same profile, no modifications, into Logic 10.4, new project no modifications, directly bounced to a 320 kbps VBR mp3. I'm using my John Mayer Signature as it looks like he's using the new PRS JM Signature.
    Here's the clip: Super Dark Majik J4 Plus Tone Compare

    I you have no success nailing what the cause might be, Rich, I highly recommend doing what Paul suggested. That way there's a common baseline that others can test from as well.


    At least that way we'll know if there's something else going on.

    I haven’t listened to either clip (I’m on an iPad right now so subtleties wouldn’t come through) but keep in mind that YouTube will do a lot of compression. If you’re saying the tonejunkie clip is louder than you think coupled with compressed at YouTube levels, it will sound different to yours for those reasons before you think of anything else.


    Which includes...... string gauge / how old they are. Setup (action height), pickup height, pickup type and construction, picking dynamics, capacitance of cable used, fingers, position of all pots. And lots of others.


    I think the secret is not to try and sound the same but to find something that makes you happy - hopefully that’s easier :)

    What I immediately noticed is that you are a "hard hitter" compared to the guy in the demo video.
    And apart from all the other causes mentioned before (like pickups, pickup selection, tone knob, volume knob, ...) one more potential issue you're having is with their statement that they haven't done anything in "post".. Many things that can be done "in post" can also be done right inside the Kemper Profiler (like e.g. EQ, Compression), actually you can do even more inside the Profiler than in post (using EQ and Compression).


    Let me give you a quick example:
    Put an EQ in slot D and drastically reduce bass and treble. Then put another EQ in the slot X and drastically boost the bass and treble there. The result is that only the mids will push the preamp stage hard (and start to distort) while all the bass and treble content stays pretty clean. Now "mixing" cleans and distorted parts of your playing might lead to a pretty big dynamic range, so it's a good idea to compress the entire signal to even out clean and distorted content and lift the overall volume. For this you can use the Compressor knob in the amp block because it acts "post-Preamp" and thus will not change the distortion amount and character. Don't be shy, just turn it up to e.g. 5 so you can easily hear what it does and how the cleans come forward.


    So this was an example what EQ inside the Profiler can do much better than in post. ;)


    PS: If you record using S/PDIF, always make sure you sync your interface to the incoming S/PDIF!! In your demo clips, I can hear clicks and pops from not properly sync'd S/PDIF all over the place.

    To my untrained ears, just sounds like you have a "harder" tone, so sounds like more gain, so it needs cleaning up a touch. Drop gain off, reduce guitar volume, reduce input volume, don;t hit the strings so hard...you're not a million miles off.


    BTW I prefer your sound!!