The 'Foundational Sonics of the KPA' thread (officially sanctioned by CK)

    This thread is a chance for me and *anyone else* including Mr. Kemper, to speak their mind concerning the KPA. The idea here is not to simply complain, but to offer helpful suggestions to improve the product for everyone:


    I will start with this observation: I believe the KPA is a very innovative product, with vast potential - for this reason it *will* be copied (the highest form of flattery), and it is important for the originators to stay ahead of the game.


    My main issue with the KPA is not it's EQ matching abilities (they are excellent), nor it's current effects arsenal (they are limited, but adequate), nor it's Cab matching capabilities, but rather the basic nature/character of the main 'distortion engine' that is used to build all the different distortion and gain models when profiling. It simply doesn't sound/respond tubey enough - to my ears, it sounds/feels somewhere between a digital simulation and solid state, especially on the transients and attacks. There is a certain 'crackle and sputter' graininess that gives it away for me - I realize that the EQ & Cab matching is enough for many users, but I believe the *nature* of the distortion must become more analog/tubelike for the final result to be totally convincing. At $1800 US, this is certainly not a typical consumer item - it is one of the 'Mercedes in the world of Chevy' modelers - this means it must perform well enough for serious pros, along with everyone else. EQ matching alone is not enough in the recording studio - all the qualities must be there, or they start wheeling out the tube amps.... *DISTORTION Matching* is the weak link of the KPA (and many other modelers as well). IMHO, the KPA engine has not fully captured the essence of quality tube distortion in all it's glory and complexity....


    And what say You? :rolleyes:

    All modelers known to man 8o

    The real question you should ask is if you could successfully and consistently pick out the Kemper/real amp in a series of blind a/b tests, and/or perform a live profiling session and have someone switch between the two while you play and see if you can tell which is which.

    I am certainly willing to take such a test, but only in person, for obvious reasons... It would need to be a double-blind test, with no amps or cabs chosen in advance - fair enough.

    All modelers known to man 8o

    Radley, with all my respect...
    There is no such thing as a distortion engine or anything like this. There is no such thing as a fundamental amp model or anything.
    Out of curiosity, are you playing the KPA through a tube PA and a cab? Because many users doing this reported that the profiled amp sounds exactly the same as the original when played this way. Don't expect the same results that you would IRL with an FRFR or studio monitor solution...

    Use your ears, not your mathematical sense.

    Quote from richaxes

    Radley, with all my respect...
    There is no such thing as a distortion engine or anything like this. There is no such thing as a fundamental amp model or anything.
    Out of curiosity, are you playing the KPA through a tube PA and a cab? Because many users doing this reported that the profiled amp sounds exactly the same as the original when played this way. Don't expect the same results that you would IRL with an FRFR or studio monitor solution...


    Rich - Do you know this for a fact? All the info I have read indicates there is one 'master amp engine' that generates all the distortion profiles, and that is what I am referring to...


    Again, this is meant to be *helpful* folks! Why must it become a downer?

    All modelers known to man 8o

    Quote from Radley

    Rich - Do you know this for a fact? All the info I have read indicates there is one 'master amp engine' that generates all the distortion profiles, and that is what I am referring to...


    Again, this is meant to be *helpful* folks! Why must it become a downer?


    AxeFX seems to have the same engine that models everything as well; the Kemper has far more variety imo. All I know is that I am glad I never hopped aboard the Axefx train. The Kemper seriously blows it away.

    Edited once, last by Animus ().

    I agree that many of the AFX amps sound similar, but are you implying this does not happen with the KPA amps? Not even sure the AFX is important in this discussion since we are wanting to make the KPA the best it can be, regardless of the competition.

    All modelers known to man 8o

    Quote from Radley

    I agree that many of the AFX amps sound similar, but are you implying this does not happen with the KPA amps? Not even sure the AFX is important in this discussion since we are wanting to make the KPA the best it can be, regardless of the competition.

    I will say that in my opinion, this does not happen with the KPA amps. It sounds like what I feed it, period.

    With all due respect:


    I certainly get the feeling that all these threads do seem to have the purpose "to stir the pot".


    I tend to avoid these threads, since they do not have anything to offer to me.



    Cheers,


    Dote

    Quote

    I will say that in my opinion, this does not happen with the KPA amps. It sounds like what I feed it, period.


    Agree with Feck 100% :thumbup:


    In my experiences with my KPA...


    Garbage in/garbage out.


    Great tone in/great tone out.


    Great distortion in/ great distortion out.


    My observation is that you seem to have a strong dislike of the "distortion engine" (judging by the number of posts and time you spend addressing the subject). I'm not sure what good it does to keep re-packaging such strong viewpoints about the same thing over and over.

    Maybe you should check the "distortion engine" in the amps you profile.
    I actually wouldn't be able to "succeed" in an A/B :D

    MJT Strats / PRS Guitars / Many DIY Guitars -- Kemper Profiler Rack / Kemper Remote / InEar

    Seeing how most cannot nor care to distinguish in listening polls, I am pretty sure the Kemper does a good job of recreating distortion. I can only assume you are referring to adding gain after the fact. But perhaps concerning "master distortion tone" or whatever maybe it's possible it's not the Kemper but your ears?

    Quote from Radley

    this is certainly not a typical consumer item - it is one of the 'Mercedes in the world of Chevy' modelers


    *DISTORTION Matching* is the weak link of the KPA (and many other modelers as well)


    radley, still: THE KPA IS A PROFILER, NOT A MODELER.


    since the basic principle: emulation/simulation of ampsounds is the same there is a difference in the idea behind it. a modeler aims to be a software replica of a real amp. the profiler catches one specific situation. as long as you compare the kpa to other modelers, you have no argument. the kpa stands alone not only as a product but a product class at the moment.


    what you - in this case - mean is that you think that the basic amp emulation module has not enough variables to reproduce all the different basic real amp characters in finest detail. if that really is the case will have to be judged by the majority of kpa players (and ck). i - too - think that the kpa does not get 100% of the amp. imo it's more like 80-90%. but if 98 out of 100 persons think, that the actual sound reproduction is good enough, we have to accept that.


    that said, i still think the idea behind the kpa is great and i hope that someday it will suit all my needs

    Edited once, last by elfredo ().

    Quote from richaxes

    There is no such thing as a fundamental amp model or anything.


    i think there is a fundamental model. the profiles only carry values for variables. so there will be a "whole" model for the kpa and several "engines" for the modules... one for the distortion, one for modulation, one for delay...