Direct Amp Profiles and DI Questions

    Hi everyone, I’ve had my Kemper Powered Rack / Remote / Kabinet for quite a while now done many hundreds of “studio” profiles (to use Kemper’s words.). Now I’m finally trying to do some Direct Amp profiles. I’ve done over 100 in the last 3 days (Trainwreck, Tweeds, and high gain makers). I’ve found without exception the the direct profiles when using the Speaker Out and routing the signal back into each amp’s original speaker/cabinet fall horribly short of a near perfect profile. Even after I refine the profiles. They are WAY too bright and almost sound as if you are listening to a “studio” profile but with the cabinet OFF.


    Here’s my set up and signal flow:
    selected amp’s speaker output (all amps set to 8 Ohms) into Two Notes Torpedo Captor 8 (plugged in to the “red nut” input or course), speaker cab emulation turned “off” and coming out the XLR into Kemper Power Rack Head’s XLR RETURN. Profiling levels, signal, and execution of profiling are fine. No problems. I refine the profile and save. I take the Speaker OUT from my powered rack head, plug it into the original amp’s cabinet and play. It sounds so far off from the original that it’s shocking to me. On a scale of 1 to 10 (ten being “indistinguishable from the original”) I rank it a 2.

    I’ve read some of the other forum posts about DI choices and the manual’s advice as well. The Two Notes DI is a very solid DI and load box and specs are WAY more than my 100W, 45W, and 18W amps could ever put out. Does anyone have any tips or insights into this process? Has anyone had absolute 10 out of 10 success with using the Kemper DI?

    Thanks in advance for any comments.


    Frustrated with the Kemper in Nashville…again

    Bryan.

    does the captor have a through output?

    Its likely a very different load to the cab you are using - some amps can be very sensitive to the load they are plugged into. If possible, rather than using the captor as the load for the amplifier, try using the cab as the load with the Captor purely taking a DI between amp and cab.

    You can also try DI boxes in this way (some such as Avalon U5 suggest you connect the cabinet to one of the amps speaker outputs and connect the DI to the other, as the DI won't draw a load).

    With that said, I've had mixed results on some amplifiers, especially when they are lighter crunch sounds. Sometimes no matter what the profile sounds like I have a big muff on it when its a TOTALLY different sound. The only support I've received is to buy the Kemper DI which I'll try if all else fails, but Ill see how I get on with the Avalon as its technically a far superior DI box.

    Also - are you dialling the tone in initially as you would with the cab, or are you dialling it in for the Captor's load?

    Disclaimer: I've yet to do a direct profile. I know you've described your signal flow but it's still unclear to me if you are hooked up to your amp's speaker while you're taking the profile. I was surprised to read in the manual that the speaker needed to be connected while taking a direct profile even though you're not micing it. Something to do with keeping the load normal on the amp. I think I've got that right anyway.

    Real quick - “geoffsct” you have to have your amp’s speaker output connected to either a load box with matching Ohms, or the amp’s speaker (if its a combo), or a speaker cabinet if your amp is a head and cabinet configuration. If you don’t do that, you will damage your amp!! All tube amps are built looking for a load resistance. Think of it this way, if you had a Ferrari up on stilts and floored it for hours on end with the wheels spinning furiously and never touching the pavement or anything that could offer a load resistance, you would burn through your engine very quickly.


    OK, I apologize for the length in advance, but I’d like to address the bigger problem that I have with my Kemper. Especially when it comes to doing direct amp profiles. And since there are lots of folks who maybe are new to Kemper-land, I’ll explain it as simply and methodically as I can.


    For those of you who have tried direct amp profiles, or in the process of trying direct amp profiles, most likely the reason why you want to do that is because you are interested in using an external cabinet either on stage, or potentially, and I say this with great skepticism, for studio recording to make your profiles sound and feel more like you’re playing your amp through a cabinet from its original speaker. Further detailed explanation follows.


    Situation 1: Live

    I have several heads that I play (Bogner, Friedman, Marshall, etc.) and I play them through my 2X12 cabinet loaded with Celestion V30s. One of the possible benefits of useing of the Kemper would be to have Direct Amp profiles of each head in my profiler, and be able to bring only my profiler, and my cabinet to a live show. Thus eliminating the need to bring multiple heads (In reality, I usually only bring one head and miss my others when performing). Note that I’m not interested in taking my “Main Outs”from the amp to the front of house as I’m only using Non-merged, Direct Amp profiles (those of you who have heard what an amp sounds like without a speaker now just how that sounds!). This is more for a club size situation where stage volume is loud enough to get the job done, or I’ll ask the sound crew to just mic my cabinet the old fashioned way. Thus, having a direct amp, non-merged profile should be perfect for this. But they fall incredibly short. Unusable really.


    Situation 2: studio recording

    We all know how to record an electric guitar amp (old school), and how to make Kemper “studio” profiles. Once the profile is made, the Kemper is really designed to be “recorded” - meaning you use the Main Output(s) and connect that to your interface/DAW - which is what I suspect 99% of Kemper users do (myself included but under duress). To me, the Kemper always sounds sterile, and doesn’t really hold up in the studio environment (There are really good reasons for this and I’m happy to explain that to anyone who is curious maybe in another post).


    If you’re like me and are not happy with this, you have 2 options:

    Running your profile through an FRFR cabinet (I own a Kemper Kabinet) and trying to record that using a mic is not recommended because now you’re essentially re-recording your profile. You’ve got the profile (orig amp, mic, mic pre, etc) and now your trying to record that set up again using another mic, mic, pre, etc. Redundant and not necessary. Kemper also does not recommend this. It’s like eating twice cooked pizza. Never as good as the first time.


    So, that leaves us with the Direct Amp possibility, which on paper should be the panacea to all this. Theoretically, we should be able to use a direct amp profile - which captures your amp from either the output stage (or the FX loop stage) and bypasses your speaker entirely - thus eliminating the need for a mic, mic pre, etc., or making a Kemper “studio” profile. We should be able to bring the Kemper profiler and a cabinet to the studio, dial up a Direct Amp (non-merged) profile, take the speaker out of the Kemper Profiler, plug into a cabinet, mic the cabinet, and record it. It should also in theory be sonically indistinguishable from the original amp and speaker combo. Blindfolded, we should not be able to tell the difference. This is the main appeal of the Kemper for me, and again it has potentially the same benefits as the live situation. Except that it doesn’t.


    The Kemper Direct Amp Conundrum:

    There are a lot of DI‘s out there on the market, and Kemper has addressed the wide variety of them very well in their instructions for making direct amp profiles. I am using either the Two Notes Torpedo Captor 8, or the Rupert Neve Designed RNDI. Both of which are exceptionally good DI boxes. The benefit of the Two Notes DI is that it can act as a load box, thus allowing you to make profiles without using the amp’s speaker. It is capable of handling 400W so there is plenty of headroom. You can of course use the THRU of the DI and still use your cabinet as well and bypass using it as a load box. The Neve DI will require you to use the THRU as you need to have a load on your amp it does not have a load box function.


    Once your connections are made: Guitar - Kemper - Kemper Direct out - Amp input - Speaker output to DI box IN, DI Thru to amp’s speaker (make sure to use speaker cables for these connections and NOT instrument cables), DI’s XLR output to Return Input on Kemper, check your signal strength, and you’re now ready to profile away.


    To hear what your profile sounds like, switch to Browse mode, take the “speaker out” on the Kemper and (using a speaker cable always) plug that into your cabinet. It should sound identical. After all, you’ve taken the amp (minus the speaker cabinet), profiled it into your Kemper, so when you plug the output of the Kemper into your cabinet, it should sound the same. Except that it doesn’t. Not by a long shot.


    The sonic result of the direct profiles, when compared to the original, does not retain the timbre of the original and adds too much top end as well as other artifacts that are not wanted or part of the original sound. This has been the case on BOTH DI boxes, used with the cabinets, and as a pure load box.


    Do we have to buy a Kemper DI to fix this?


    Which brings me back full circle - has anyone had total success using the Kemper DI or do you still have to tweak and refine and so forth? I’m interested in any testimonials especially by those who have tried other DIs and are still not happy with their Direct Amp profiles.


    FWIW, when some of the best and most respected DIs on the market can’t really get the job done it tells me that this is a Kemper profiling issue. Perhaps having a separate Direct Amp Profile algorithm, instead of the original one which as far as I know has never been updated.


    Cheers,

    Bryan

    Quote from ThingsWithStrings

    Theoretically, we should be able to use a direct amp profile - which captures your amp from either the output stage (or the FX loop stage) and bypasses your speaker entirely - thus eliminating the need for a mic, mic pre, etc., or making a Kemper “studio” profile. We should be able to bring the Kemper profiler and a cabinet to the studio, dial up a Direct Amp (non-merged) profile, take the speaker out of the Kemper Profiler, plug into a cabinet, mic the cabinet, and record it. It should also in theory be sonically indistinguishable from the original amp and speaker combo.

    I think you have to be careful here. Taking a signal from the FX loop output and making a direct profile is VERY different to taking one thats coming from the speaker output (either loaded down through a reactive load, or using a cab load+DI box).

    The FX loop won't have any of the power amp circuitry, and that a huge component of the amplifier's sound. This may in some situations be preferable if you are amplifying the signal back up through a cab - if you use a profile with a poweramp load profiled, then you're technically having 2 power amp's in the chain. With some poweramp's this can sound ok, and other's it will make things VERY hyped. Either way, its different to the original amp on its own.

    For recording purposes, you absolutely want that power amp section in the profile. If you take a signal from a line out (from the preamp) or FX loop, its going to sound flat and nothing like your amp. You need preamp+poweramp+IR. The difficulty is that all 3 sections interact. For instance, the sag caused by the guitar string will affect the preamp and poweramp together in a real amp. The cabinet/load will affect the negative feedback of the poweramp. The power amp's tone will change considerably based on how hard the phase inverter is working and how hard its driving the speakers. Even speakers will sound different at different volumes.

    I think a lot of confusion about direct profiles is they're made in different ways and for different uses. IMO Captor's don't sound very authentic as a load, and make amps sound and feel dull. A Suhr is great, but nothing like a 4x12 with V30's as a load (perfect for a Greenback loaded 4x12). Kemper insists on a DI so the amplifier is seeing the same load for direct and studio profiles. But IMO this isn't always an ideal way to capture a direct profile, as the benefit of using a direct profile should be the freedom to use any IR (and ideally have a different load applied).

    The effectiveness of your direct profiles really depends on what you are trying to achieve from it. I'm totally convinced about how good direct profiles sound when profiling my amplifiers - it sounds exactly as it should and I can't easily tell the difference from the real amp. The issue I have is the Kemper works fine for capturing cleaner tones and high gain tones, and SOME midgain tones. But other midgain tones throw it off massively no matter what I try (I admittedly haven't bought the Kemper DI which is what they insist on to be able to support me).

    Not sure if this will help but when I was doing some studio profiles, sometimes I would adjust the eq on the Amp to compensate. For example, sometimes it would come out too dark so I increased the treble and presence on the Amp higher than what I would actually use on my Amp to get the profile to come out the way I wanted it too. Same thing with bass. Sometimes if I needed to, I would turn down the gain or volume but usually I would have a hard time getting it to come out more airy sounding. All if not most DI profiles I've bought or downloaded have been the best experiences playing through a real cab.


    My only problem sometimes is that when I merge a cab to a DI profile, two things happen usually there's a slight change in the real cab like a very small mid range napkin in front of the cab inside the sound and 2nd, post effects have a different routing function that changes to an ice pick type sound. An example of the latter would be any delays, pitches, would have this high end spikey whistle sound.

    I can't comment on Direct profiles as never made one but since you did pitch these comments at new users, I will counter with my views ( and these are all just opinions).


    DI profiles are only for those who really want to use it in the same mode as a regular amp, which is missing the whole point IMO.


    Even for small venues, I believe you should still run your amp through the PA. Why? For sound balance. I guarantee that in a full venue, no one at the back will hear you and someone at the front in you speaker line of sight will only hear you. I understand that's not what you like to do but that is a fundamental for me.


    If you like to monitor onstage using a Cab then merged profiles are better. Have you tried any of these with any success or the same issue?


    For studio, why would you want to take your Cab? If its because it sound sterile then you have an issue with the KPA profiling process full stop.


    Anyway, apologies in advance for making a side comment here, but I think its important.


    Hopefully you will resolve the DI issue - although I suspect you already have - If you haven't found any good DI profiles then it doesn't match the expectation.

    Quote from ThingsWithStrings

    .



    Running your profile through an FRFR cabinet (I own a Kemper Kabinet) and trying to record that using a mic is not recommended because now you’re essentially re-recording your profile. You’ve got the profile (orig amp, mic, mic pre, etc) and now your trying to record that set up again using another mic, mic, pre, etc. Redundant and not necessary. Kemper also does not recommend this. It’s like eating twice cooked pizza. Never as good as the first time.

    that's not the reason they don't recommend it.


    FRFR cabs and the Kemper Kone have two speakers - one for low frequency and one for highs. In most FRFR these are separated by some distance so a mic won't pick up both properly. With speakers like the Kone the two drivers are concentric (the smaller high frequency driver is inside the larger low frequency one) in this case a single mic might be able to pickup both speakers but there are likely to be phase issues that make the sound less than ideal.

    Quote from easstudios

    The effectiveness of your direct profiles really depends on what you are trying to achieve from it. I'm totally convinced about how good direct profiles sound when profiling my amplifiers - it sounds exactly as it should and I can't easily tell the difference from the real amp. The issue I have is the Kemper works fine for capturing cleaner tones and high gain tones, and SOME midgain tones. But other midgain tones throw it off massively no matter what I try (I admittedly haven't bought the Kemper DI which is what they insist on to be able to support me).

    thanks everyone for chiming in on this! For the record, I am not using the effects loop to make direct profiles. I am only using the speaker out option. I just listed that for those who may not realize that you can do that as well if you choose. I should’ve made that more obvious.


    Easstudios, You’re getting right to the heart of the matter which is: mid gain tones. That is my bread and butter, and I live in that world 90% of the time. Would you mind sharing how you’re making your direct amp Profiles? I’m not sure if you’re trying to resell them commercially later or not (In which case I totally understand). I am not. I’m just a working musician interested in trying to make better direct amp Profiles.


    When Kemper came to Nashville 13 years ago, they spent weeks profiling amps at a close friend’s studio. Many of which made it onto the original amp profiles pack. When I was able to beta test the first version of the toaster head along with some other session players gathered at the studio, I liked the way it could capture distortion tones especially when they were super heavy. But most of the time, no one plays that heavy unless they’re in a metal band and as well they should. But I was not impressed with how the Kemper could handle amps on the edge of break up and medium game tones overall - There was a harshness and a mid range frequency masking thing going on. The more we tried to refine the profile the more it became a crapshoot. Most of the time, we had to run the same profile over and over again until we got closer to it. It’s gotten much much better - obviously I have drunk the Kemper Kool-Aid and they do make a very good product.


    Quote from V8guitar

    For studio, why would you want to take your Cab? If its because it sound sterile then you have an issue with the KPA profiling process full stop.

    You're right I do have a problem with the profiling process (mentioned above). Honestly, I just happen to be in the category of customer that is interested in seeing if I can live in the recording studio world with a Kemper head and be able to get all the nuances that my real amps provide with a real cabinet. I can take advantage of different mic combinations and placements, multiple mic locations with in a room, and all the outboard gear I can put it through. When you show up to a studio with a pre-fab profile, you collapse all those options that are always available when you have your real amps. :)


    Cheers,

    Bryan

    Quote from ThingsWithStrings

    Easstudios, You’re getting right to the heart of the matter which is: mid gain tones. That is my bread and butter, and I live in that world 90% of the time. Would you mind sharing how you’re making your direct amp Profiles? I’m not sure if you’re trying to resell them commercially later or not (In which case I totally understand). I am not. I’m just a working musician interested in trying to make better direct amp Profiles.

    As yet, I haven't really found a solution for the sounds that cause the Kemper problems when capturing them directly. I've just put them to one side and made studio profiles in the mean time. The Avalon U5 has only just arrived so I'll see if that makes a difference, and if not then I'll have to find a Kemper DI and try that. Its a shame because for my workflow Direct Profiles have so many advantages.

    I have several DI boxes all designed for capturing an accurate DI from the amplifier, whether a cabinet is providing the load, or if a reactive load box is. I'm only using Reactive Load's modelled on 4x12's that have the resonant bass peak, and regardless, just using them as a DI while the cab in questions supplies the load shouldn't cause the issues it does.

    Kemper's stance currently is just: use the Kemper DI, but I'm hesitant to buy one when I already have high end gear I'm happy with that can do that and far more.