How to get a Metheny/Kreisberg sound using Kemper

    I have a fair amount of gear, incl a Kemper and I am stuck on how to get that warm, full, fluid tone out of my ES 175. I've got 4 JBL cabs, 2x12/1x15 left, 4x12/1x15 on the right.


    I am using 1 Lexicon Prime Time II 95, and a DigiTech GSP2101 but it'll take forever to figure out how to get the right tone. Not even sure if I need 2 Lexicons for left and right.


    I am using 2 QSC PLX solid state amps.


    I am not using the Kemper because it is so quiet, not a very powerful amp, and I don't even know where to start how to use it.


    I had this idea I could mic l/r external speakers playing only solo guitar playing from my favorite players and somehow can use Kemper to analyze what it is hearing and then translate that into a profile with specific settings to give me a head start.

    Do you have a powered or unpowered Kemper? I’ve been searching for that tone too and I think I found it with clean profiles and the dreamy KPA reverb.

    A brace of Suhrs, a Charvel, a toaster, an Apollo twin, a Mac, and a DXR10

    Anything like this?


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    Sorry for the brutal self promotion

    A brace of Suhrs, a Charvel, a toaster, an Apollo twin, a Mac, and a DXR10

    Like 4
    Quote from MontroseStudios

    It's a start, yes. I like the warmer EQ midrange sound your get on the E A D G strings. On my ES 175 I might get a fuller fatter tone on the B/E strings?

    I’d think so, I’ll get my presets tomorrow. Any cleanish profile should do the trick but I think that one is a TAF Two Rock profile

    A brace of Suhrs, a Charvel, a toaster, an Apollo twin, a Mac, and a DXR10

    Quote from MontroseStudios

    I am not using the Kemper because it is so quiet, not a very powerful amp

    600 WATTS (160 continuous) is "quiet"? I'm pretty sure I can fracture glass with mine.

    Quote from MontroseStudios

    I don't even know where to start how to use it.

    Sorry to be cliche' but the manual is the place to start. Not that tough of a read and it will be well worth your time. Things that don't connect there, ask here and you'll more than likely get a solution. Chances are the artist you're trying to emulate was using a guitar amp and guitar speakers. Don't make it too complicated, the Kemper can cover pretty much anything, it's all in the profile.

    Quote from Dynochrome

    Chances are the artist you're trying to emulate was using a guitar amp and guitar speakers. Don't make it too complicated, the Kemper can cover pretty much anything, it's all in the profile.

    Pat Metheny is a long time Kemper user. I believe his rig is based on powered racks.


    However, he said this about his sound on his own website:


    Quote

    i'll be happy to go into detail about how my gear works, etc., but i had a revelatory experience a few years ago when i realized that "equipment", although certainly a component in my sound, really had little to do with why i sound like the way i sound. for years, between around 1977 to 1987, i never did ANYTHING without my "rig". i would never "sit in" unless i could have my amps and stuff there, i basically didn't do any record dates at all other than my own cause i was sure they would "mess up my sound" etc. etc. then in 1987 i went to the then USSR on a tour with the group and there were a few "jam session" situations where i HAD to play with some russian guys on their "gear" (and i use the term loosely). i played one night on a polish guitar and a czech amp. someone taped it and gave me the tape the next day. i was shocked to hear that i sounded JUST LIKE ME!!!! since then, i sit in all the time on any old thing and have a blast and do record dates without worrying (too much) that it's gonna get mixed wrong etc. etc. i feel much better knowing FOR SURE that it's more about conception and touch and spirit and soul etc., than whether my hardware was in place. i do, however, totally envy horn players who are "sonically self-contained". they ARE their sound, especially if they can tote their own axe around with 'em as they all easily can do.

    the REAL answer to your question though is this. i used an acoustic (brand name) 134 model amp for 20 years from 1974 to 1994. that amp had the SOUND for me. flat, kind of midrangy-bright but mellow and LOUD without any distortion. a hard combination of things to find in one place. unfortunately it was also really noisy and tended to break alot. i paid alot of dues keeping that guy around. during the josh redman tour i could see i was finally gonna have to change and also i had the urge to get modern a little. i knew there were new things out there and so i started trying everything. i finally settled on the digitech 2101 dsp guitar preamp. with it, i could get the SOUND and some cool bells and whistles too, mainly pre-programmability. (no more moving the barely-hangin-on-the-134-front-panel treble control exactly 2.3 centimeters to get the sitar on "last train home" to sound right and then in the 1.7 seconds before the next tune starts trying to get EXACTLY back to where it was. etc.)

    like the 134 always was, the output of the digitech is run into 2 lexicon prime-time digital delay lines, one on my left at 14 ms delay, one one my right at 26 ms delay. each delay has a very slight "pitch bend" controlled by the VCO (sine wave) inside the prime-time. this is what gives it the "chorused" thing that i guess i would have to say i was the first to use extensively in jazz and that seemed to have influenced alot of other guys to do the same. only thing, i HATE the way "chorus boxes" sound, my sound is mostly the "straight "134/digitech line which is behind me with NO PITCH BEND which gets blended IN THE AIR with the the two DISCRETE delay pitch bends (which are much softer than the "straight" amp volume) to get a bigger sound. i HATE when i hear the "pitch bend" and the straight mixed together and coming out of the same speaker. it drives me crazy. you can then imagine that it's hard for me in a studio. studios and records are STEREO and i have THREE discrete sources, "straight", delay left, and delay right. i don't feel like i've ever gotten it right on any record. i'm anxiously awaiting the coming days when we get to go back in and re-mix everything for everyone's home 6-track surround systems!!! i'll finally be able to get the guitar sound right!!!!!! (also, i forgot one thing, i always have a slight 450-500 ms delay mixed in right off the guitar too. if you hear it too much, it's too loud. it just lengthens the notes some.)

    my highlights for the bit that really makes the difference.

    Quote from Wheresthedug

    Pat Metheny is a long time Kemper user. I believe his rig is based on powered racks.


    However, he said this about his sound on his own website:


    my highlights for the bit that really makes the difference.


    Thank you for the reply. I did indeed read that comment. When I am at home I play on my 6 yr old's 3/4 size nylon string guitar and in some ways (for slower, more melodic things) I enjoy the sound and experience of playing just as much. However, on the ES 175 I can get around a little more efficiently, but I just don't like the sound coming from the speakers. Too bright and glassy, and I have the tone knob turned all the way down on the guitar.


    As far as looking at the manual, I have done that, but when trying to get a very specific sound, or at least something in the ballpark, that is an entirely different matter. I posted here thinking maybe someone has already dialed in a similar tone to what I generally described to get me in the right zip code instead of staring at a global map.


    I do have a question for you ... when Pat says " 2 lexicon prime-time digital delay lines " do you read that as one unit sending l/r signals, or so you see it as 2 units, one dedicated for the right, and the other the left?


    Also, that quote is pretty old. Do you know if Pat uses the lexicons anymore? Or is he getting everything from within the Kemper? Or is there some sort of daisy chain still including the DigiTech/Lexicon and Kemper?


    Also, if you know, but, what would come first in a DigiTech/Lexicon combo - the lexicon or the DigiTech?


    And if I use the Kemper and want to use the lexicon as well, what should first in line, the Kemper or the lexicon?

    Short answer is , I don’t know.


    I would guess he doesn’t use the Lexicons anymore as they were apparently just doing a simple delay to creat a bot of ADT.


    Have you tried the Mentheny Rig in the Kemper Legends Tribute pack? I would think that would be a pretty good starting point.



    EDIT:


    I used to love Pat's playing (still do) but haven't really listened to him in many years so I'm no expert on the sound.


    I've just had a few ideas though and a little play around with the KPA. Maybe Pat does still need the lexicons or something similar as the shortest delay possible in the KPA seems to be 46ms.


    However, given that he is basically using the delays as a double tracker it might be possible to use the Double Tracker FX instead of two delays. He also describes his chorus as being "mixed in the air" which is what the Air Chorus is actually designed to do so perhaps try that along with the DT effect. He also says he uses a 400 - 500ms delay on the clean guitar portion so the single delay effect type would cover that. With only the last 2 FX slots having the series/parallel routing capabilities it could be difficult to replicate the full signal path exactly but I would try to get in the ball park rather than totally accurate as even Pat doesn't seem to worry about it much since his epiphany.


    You could try running DT in the DLY block and Air Chorus in the Rev block with Routing in the Rig menu at -100% which should give a clean signal plus chorused double tracked in parallel with it.


    Worth experimenting with some of those ideas and see what grabs you.


    I found them - Thanks!!!!