mDan, with all due respect, but that's simply bullshit.
lightbox ...with all due respect, but that's simply bullshit
We all know that the parts / materials etc. of the KPA are surely not worth much more than 100,- Euros.
It's the idea / the technology that makes the price ... and the sales tell us it's a good price.
Why the hell should someone sell a product with 80 % functionality for 20 % of the price?
Without profiling option I think a good price would be 1.100 - 1.200 Euros.
What exactly do you want to tell me/us: That we should just shut up and forget our request just because you think it's impossible? Is it that? Let me tell you in german: "Dem Ingenieur ist nichts zu schwör"
Der Ingenieur möchte aber auch bezahlt werden
Mal auf deutsch: Ne, natürlich nicht. Aber es ist garantiert nicht machbar, die Technologie (laut Christoph steckt da 5++ Jahre Entwicklung dahinter) in eine Box zu stecken und zu verschleudern. Ich wette in so einem Zoom steckt nichtmal 1/10 der Entwicklungsarbeit eines KPA, klingt es deswegen schlecht? Nö, hab selbst ein G3 und finds toll.
Ich würde auch ein KPA mini zu dem Preis sofort kaufen, dennoch halte ICH es für unmöglich, die Leute bei Kemper wollen auch von etwas leben und fahren einfach nicht die Stückzahlen wie Zoom/Line6/Boss.... zum Vergleich: Ich habe gerade ein Baord entwickelt mit einem Blackfin BF504F - ziemlich low-end und kann fast nix - die Hardware kostet da rund 70€ mit sehr rudimentären AD/DA Wandlern die mit Audio nichts am Hut haben. Ich weiß jetzt auch nicht im Detail was im KPA an AD/DA Wandlung steckt, aber die können vernünftig ausgeführt alleine schon ins 3stellige gehen. Aber eigentlich geht es darum ja gerade auch gar nicht
Was ich eigentlich sagen will: Wenn man all das einspart was du dir vorstellst würde das auf keinen Fall einen Preisunterschied von 1200-1300€ rechtfertigen - natürlich wärs schön, wer spart nicht gerne geld, aber ich persönlich halte es eben für absolut unrealistisch, alleine schon von den Herstellungskosten, da müsste es den Rest dann schon fast geschenkt geben was halt keinen Sinn macht - und man bezahlt eben nunmal viel Geld alleine für die Technologie, ein Profit muss ja auch noch herauskommen, logisch. Schau dich um - es gibt nichts vergleichbares, das Axe ist auch mit FW10 noch weit entfernt in Sachen Ampfeeling.
Aber nun gut, jedem das seine ich wollte hier nicht "besserwisserisch rüberkommen", Frieden? Wir werden ja sehen was die Zukunft bringt
Natürlich Frieden, bloß nix persönlich nehmen. Ich diskutiere gerne hart in der Sache. Das mit dem "bullshit" tut mir leid, weil das im anderen Sprachraum wesentlich rüder rüberkommt, als wenn ich auf deutsch mal eben schnell "schwachsinn" schreibe. Egal, Lebbe geht waida, wie ein berühmter Ex-Frankfurter mal sagte. 
Der eigentliche Punkt ist der, dass die Technologie doch schon komplett vorhanden ist und vom Markt auch angenommen wird. Drastisch reduzierter Funktionsumfang sollte nicht schwer zu implementieren sein. Weglassen sollte immer einfach sein. Das heißt für mich, dass man das nötige "Zeugs" nur in den passenden Formfaktor bringen muss und auf der Code-Seite eigentlich nichts ändern muss, außer der Besaftung eines kleinen LCDs und die wenigen verbleibenden Controls auf entsprechende Tasten legen muss. Das sollte keine Aktion sein, an der sowas komplett scheitert, obwohl es natürlich etwas Arbeit ist. Von nix kommt nix.
Ich glaube, dass manche noch nicht verstehen, dass ich nicht "nur" das Profiling weglassen würde, sondern im Grunde alles, was Rig-Erstellung und Änderung von Parametern angeht. Nur ganz essenzielle Dinge sollten da drin sein. Wenn Mercedes für die S-Klasse ein Airbag entwickelt hat, dann muss ein Smart nicht auch 80.000 Euro kosten, nur weil er auch den Airbag hat. Der Smart hat eben viele andere Dinge nicht und das ist ok so. Wenn Technologie mal vorhanden und "erprobt" ist, dann kann man sie problemlos einer Menge von Anwendungen in unterschiedlichen Preissegmenten zuführen. Vielleicht machts das deutlicher, was ich genau meine.
PS: Sorry, but this had to be german Will switch back to english now.
lightbox: make what ever arguments you like. Scream it from the roof tops. Multiple code bases would be required to run on different hardware with different features. Fact of the matter is there is no KPA floorboard/micro KPA and the only folks who can make that decision are the folks who run the company. I can tell you straight up that if I had the choice of a more affordable floor based unit or the lunchbox, I would have never bought the lunchbox and I can guarantee a great many others will have the same position. By delaying the release of such a product until the KPA lunchbox/rack have market saturation and sales slow down, they can then release the product and capitalize on a large pool of existing owners which woudl prefer a compact format as well as tap into a new pool at a lower price point. To release such a product before they've reached maximum market penetration on their "top tier" products will absolutely limit the company's potential profit. This really is entry level business school stuff. You never undercut yourself...
What exactly makes you think that a small device would hurt the KPA sales? I can't see a single point where they would eat each other's market share. They are 2 completely different things based on the same Kemper profiling technology and they serve very different purposes. And last but not least ... a cheaper device with limited functionality but exactly same sound quality could very likely open the Kemper world to a whole new market segment with potentially much more quantities sold.
Still there hasn't been a single valid point that would make a miniKPA impossible, imho. And I don't think a miniKPA would be the right way to just squeeze some more bucks and coins out of a saturated KPA market short before the product's EOL. That's just not healthy business.
I'd like to carry on this discussion just for the sake of exchanging ideas, don't want to turn it into a fight.
Having said this, I did not write that it's impossible... I tried and explain the reasons why IMO it would not be a bargain (until break-even) for Kemper and why they won't release one in the close future. I can be of course completely off-base, it's just MO.
I'm convinced that a player would hurt KPA sales because many current KPA owners are not at all interested in profiling anything, and if they could have chosen they'd go for the player. I've heard this many, many times since the KPA hit the market. And I don't believe it's "good marketing" to create a concurrent product when the main one is still in the early stages of its life cycle.
Apart from this, I hope that your player will be available ASAP, and you can be happy, and in peace
PS: Sorry, just now read Will's post, which I'd basically echo in its technical contents 
The lack of specific knobs and LEDs doesn't necessarily require a different code base.
I guess you mean that the same code could have conditional routines that essentially say "if you're a lunchbox, do X; if you're a rack, do Y; if you're a mini, do Z"? Doesn't that still require more resources from a coding and support point of view? In the interest of minimizing memory requirements and maximizing performance for any given device, wouldn't it be better to only use code relevant to that device (i.e. create different code bases)? Maybe these concerns are trivial, I don't know.
I'm convinced that a player would hurt KPA sales because many current KPA owners are not at all interested in profiling anything, and if they could have chosen they'd go for the player.
I think this a good point... If there had been such a thing from the start, we wouldn´t have seen all those beautyful free profiles on the rig exchange. And this whole community thing just makes the KPA so nice. I am sure that many of the profiles that you like come from people that had no experience in miking up amps before. I think that too many user would think for themselves "hey, i´m not a studio player, producer or engineer... i better not get a full profiler because i doubt that something useful could ever come from it"...
For some reason you guys still believe, that I want 80% functionality for 20% price, but that's simply not true.
I want a Rig Player, yes. But this device should not have ANY editing, saving, creating rigs capabilities. Just a few necessary volume adjustments and a few buttons to switch on/off stomp boxes. In terms of manual functionality this would be roughly 5% of what you can do with the lunchbox for 20% of the price. Does this make more sense for you guys now? It's about a player, not anything editor.
Will_Chen: Nobody asked for different hardware. They could use exactly the same DSP and most of the other electronic components. You don't have to change code if you minimze a circuit board or redesign the case.
burningyen: There would certainly be a couple of cases where conditionals are great, but in most cases, it's much easier. You don't have to change code that modifies reverb time by turning Knob 1, if there simply isn't a Knob 1. Just leave the code as is. Very simple.
Cheers,
Martin
I'm convinced that a player would hurt KPA sales because many current KPA owners are not at all interested in profiling anything, and if they could have chosen they'd go for the player.
Young players would start with a miniKPA but they would certainly sooner or later come to a point where they want to do their own profiles. On the other hand players who start with a toaster or rack KPA would love to have a smaller/lighter version for certain occasions of light-weight touring. So in the long run it is appealing for many usergroups to own both of them. How could that hurt the sales?
... they would certainly sooner or later come to a point where they want to do their own profiles.
Not only own profiles, but also to create and edit their own rigs, modify and save effects and amp parameters, organize their rigs for gigs incl. the Perform Mode that I hope will be released for the KPA soon, have external control via a floorboard, have effects loop and more I/O options.
Many good and valid reasons to go for the "big" KPA, imho.
QuoteDisplay MoreFor some reason you guys still believe, that I want 80% functionality for 20% price, but that's simply not true.
I want a Rig Player, yes. But this device should not have ANY editing, saving, creating rigs capabilities. Just a few necessary volume adjustments and a few buttons to switch on/off stomp boxes. In terms of manual functionality this would be roughly 5% of what you can do with the lunchbox for 20% of the price. Does this make more sense for you guys now? It's about a player, not anything editor.
Will_Chen: Nobody asked for different hardware. They could use exactly the same DSP and most of the other electronic components. You don't have to change code if you minimze a circuit board or redesign the case.
burningyen: There would certainly be a couple of cases where conditionals are great, but in most cases, it's much easier. You don't have to change code that modifies reverb time by turning Knob 1, if there simply isn't a Knob 1. Just leave the code as is. Very simple.
Cheers,
Martin
Actually, it makes even less sense. You've asked them to keep the same top end hardware guts but purposely handicap the functionality and presume it would cost only 20% of the KPA? Again, business school 101. The only reason companies bring products to market is to make money In order to stay in business, a calculated profit margin has to be built into every device. If they were to sell a product at 20% the retail cost of the KPA, they would need to reduce the manufacturing cost similarly, and plan the product in a way in which they would hope to sell 5 times as many in order to keep the the company operating at the same profit margin. I just can't see any market for a digital amp modeler which can not be edited. I'm all for the idea of a compact floorboard based KPA, I also think it makes good business sense for it to be a "player" and keep the profiling limited to the top line products, I just don't see that coming to market for a few years (and to be clear I do believe they will build one eventually).
Young players would start with a miniKPA but they would certainly sooner or later come to a point where they want to do their own profiles. On the other hand players who start with a toaster or rack KPA would love to have a smaller/lighter version for certain occasions of light-weight touring. So in the long run it is appealing for many usergroups to own both of them. How could that hurt the sales?
Well, your certainties are not mine then!
While we can freely speculate over what people would do and risk nothing, a completely different matter is to bet your own money on this kind of speculations.
A mistake here would mean the death of a small company.
So, IMO, Kemper will go on on the wisdom\safety line: don't do anything as long as the KPA has not entered its last life-cycle curve
Uh, and don't take me wrong: I'd have nothing negative to say should a KPP hit the market
Peace and axes
For musicians who have to go touring with cheap airlines, the importance of light-weight touring is underestimated in the Kemper product line. The toaster is cute but bulky and the rack is practical but even more bulky. Don't even dream of adding a KFC without paying overweight on every trip.
For musicians who have to go touring with cheap airlines, the importance of light-weight touring is underestimated in the Kemper product line. The toaster is cute but bulky and the rack is practical but even more bulky. Don't even dream of adding a KFC without paying overweight on every trip.
The toaster fits perfectly in a small trolley ( without the hard case of course ).
I can confirm that it's no problem to take the lunchbox as hand luggage and it's perfectly made for the overhead compartment.
You just have to deal with curiosity of the X-Ray guy at the airport
The toaster fits perfectly in a small trolley
It fits, I know. But I would say "perfectly made" only if it was 2 cm less in depth and a bit less in weight. It fits very, very, very tight. Actually it only fits if you take the Kemp almost naked inside an very light, almost unpadded bag.
It does not fit into a handluggage-trolley with wheels and a rod system. It does not fit if you want to add enough padding so that you are prepared in case that one part of the flight is on a smaller turboprop maschine and you have to deliver your beloved Kemp into the luggage compartment right at the aircraft. If it was just one or two cm less in depth even it's rugged, original flightcase would comply the handluggage rules.
If you think I am nitty gritty about cm and kg, I have to tell you that many airlines (especially LUFTHANSA and AIRBERLIN) have been ripping me off several hundreds of Euro just about these tiny little cm to much here and one or two kg to much there. And this money is what I add into the equation when we talk about the price and benefit of a smaller KPA.
BTW no musician is touring with only the KPA and nothing else, right? Add a guitar, a floorboard, cables, pedals, a bit of CD-merch and some personal stuff and you very soon are over the limit of check-in luggage.
So until we get our Travelkemp I put all my cables and stomps packed inside this Cargojacket here in the suitcase. To be ready just in case. Luckily I never had to use it - most check-in-employees are friendly and tolerate one or two kg over.
The toaster is perfect for travelling,even on airplanes.
While i do understand why someone would want a cheaper smaller Kemper with only some basic features i don't see that happening in the near future(if ever).
I think that there are some other alternatives in the market that would fit some of those specific needs,get a pod a or something like it if you really have to(sure soundwise it's not the same,but if you really need something small cheap and practical...).
The toaster is perfect for travelling,even on airplanes.
Sorry, no. It's fine, but I don't agree with "perfect". The protruding knobs for Gain, Volume and Tone are a glass jaw. And if you pad them properley, you will excede the 20 cm margin for cabin luggage.
I think that there are some other alternatives in the market that would fit some of those specific needs,get a pod a or something like it if you really have to(sure soundwise it's not the same,but if you really need something small cheap and practical...).
You mean I should practice at home with my lovely KPA and then, when I manage to contrive an invitation for an international gig I go there and perform with a POD?!? 
Sorry, no. It's fine, but I don't agree with "perfect". The protruding knobs for Gain, Volume and Tone are a glass jaw. And if you pad them properley, you will excede the 20 cm margin for cabin luggage.
You mean I should practice at home with my lovely KPA and then, when I manage to contrive an invitation for an international gig I go there and perform with a POD?!?
I don't know if you noticed but that is practically what you are saying,since you seem to be unable to take a the Kemper toaster on airplane that seems to be your only option.
I really don't understand why because even if you don't want to put it under the airplane chair(it fits,i travelled with one like that) you have no problem whatsoever putting on the interior baggage compartment .
Either way the toaster is perfect for air travelling,im sure many users already travelled with their Kemper units.
To be honest (and don't be offended please)what this seems to me is just an excuse you made up to convince the Kemper team that building a cheaper,smaller unit is a good ideia.
I think that there are better reasons for that than air travelling to be honest.
But like i said i don't foresee something like this happening in the near future(on a businesses point of view it would be a bad decision at present time).
Ps : You can always rent some gear if you don't want to bother to bring your own,but that of course won't come cheap.
