Turning knobs: Does it detract from the Profiler's "core" strength?

    I've always been intrigued by one of the arguments against the Kemper's "profiling" approach to sound modelling, that is, the gain and tone knobs don't react like they would had you been turning the corresponding knobs on an amplifier head.


    How much of a drawback is this really? Is it even a drawback? I watched a one-hour video by Andertons UK where they demo'ed the Kemper; was super-impressed at how the toaster nailed the sound of most of the amps they tested out after a little tweaking.


    I also took note of one instance where Rob Chappers, who was doing the demonstration, noted after tweaking of some knobs that the Kemper "rectified" an issue that existed with the original amp.


    So by tweaking a knob and taking the Kemper away from the sound of the original amp, are we neglecting its primary role as an amp profiler? Or are we building upon it? Does this expand its role into tone generation technology?


    Also, what happens to the "feel" of playing through the Kemper after tweaking the original amp sound? Does the responsiveness deteriorate? Or alternatively, does it improve? Can it "feel" better than a tube amp?


    Best wishes to CK and his team. I've read arguments of this nature would result in on the Fractal forums, I am now keen to know what the Kemper forum members think about it.

    Its strength is whatever you make it, methinks. It sends test signals and analyzes the amp, and from that it can either use the result as is or modify some of the parameters involved.


    I really like the very effective, few amp parameters in the Kemper. The "Definition" that shapes the signal prior to the pre amp, and thus drastically alters how frequencies are driven into distortion. The "Clarity" that sort of creates a parallel path with not so distorted signal.


    With Gain, Definition, Clarity and eq, I could almost survive with just one profile to go from 8)


    The core "strength" of the Kemper (for me), compared to other modelers, is the saturation/distortion character. For some reason none other is capable of that clear, chewey, raw and still pleasant character. Very natural.


    Do whatever it takes to make what you want, just like with any other modeler. Just because it starts out with some kinda cloning process, doesn't mean you have to treat those profiles with kid gloves! 8)

    I don't turn knobs to get a more realistic amp tone, it's already there. I turn knobs to get a very specific tone that I'm looking for and for this purpose those knobs are amazingly effective. If you change the settings in the amplifier stack section you can increase or decrease the amp response in several ways as you like. Most of the time I start from a profile that already fits my needs, just adjust the EQ for the guitar I use then I play! :D

    It's great, tune the profile to your touch, guitar and taste, nothing more, nothing less.

    New talent management advice to Laura Cox -


    “Laura want to break the internet? let’s shoot another video of you covering the Nightrain solo in the blue singlet, but this time we’ll crank up the air conditioning”.

    It has been a non-issue for me. I haven't bothered to compare different gain settings on a single profile vs. higher-gain profiles of that same amp, but I suspect I would be hard pressed to tell the difference in many cases. It's nice having the multiple profiles, anyway.

    Also for me this is a non - issue.
    Tweaking an existing profile never deteriorates the original but often brings a new perspective like in 'wow, if amp x had this much gain it would sound like...' or 'if amp y had a really capable EQ I could make it sound like...'


    Think of the tweaking possibilities like you had an extra mixing desk at hand with delicate preamps you can drive into insane distortion plus the most musical EQ to bend and shape your signal at the same time.

    I can see what you are saying. And folks here all have good points. In terms of gain, I think if you stay within a couple of numbers from where the amp was profiled the Kemper sounds very very authentic. More extreme changes and , to a certain degree, it is taking an educated guess. But like Ingolf said, it can open up all new possibilities.


    For what it's worth, when I profile my own amps, I profile them at several different gain levels for that reason. It has worked out great for me!


    On another note, like the tone/eq controls on the Kemper than on my amps. They really picked some musical sweet spots to tune them to. And they have more range than a typical amps eq. That was a really nice surprise.

    There is a camp of users who believe you shouldn't make any adjustments to a profile as that is how the amp sounded when it was captured. I think that's incredibly close minded. The KPA is a tool to achieve a means to an end. Twist the dials to your hearts content to find the tone you hear in your head. I would suggest you view a profile as a starting point, not the ending point. It doesn't matter if the dials work like the profiled amp, what matters is the end result hitting your ears.

    This is a nice point to start a philosophical discussion about the properties of tube amps.


    The main purpose of a gain control is to control the amount of distortion.
    Everybody might agree to this point.


    Many tube amps add colouration with the gain control.
    The more gain, the more bass frequencies are added to the guitar sound.
    With less gain, bass frequencies go down, making the sound thinner.


    Does anybody know, if there is a specific intention behind that added coloration?

    Quote from ckemper

    Many tube amps add colouration with the gain control.
    The more gain, the more bass frequencies are added to the guitar sound.
    With less gain, bass frequencies go down, making the sound thinner.


    Does anybody know, if there is a specific intention behind that added coloration?

    This behaviour is typical for capacitor parallel to a pot. You find it on most Volume pots in amps as well as in guitars too. Also on Gain pots of High-Gain amps (Marshall, Mesa-Rectifier ...). Like in guitars, it is meant to preserve the high frequencies from being dampend at lower volume/gain settings. And like in guitars it hardly ever really works.


    Some amps even have a Bright switch which is nothing else than a possibility to take out this condenser. On a Fender Twin at low volumes for example this Bright switch lets you choose between too muddy or too brittle. :(


    The KPA allows us to profile the amps at their sweet spot and then play at any volume. That's so gorgeous!


    For me the Gain knob at the KPA works fine, as long as you go down. Adding more gain than the reference amp had might be difficult sooner or later, but taking down the gain is ok for me. It just does not contain the above mentioned coloration. Which I like a lot. Who needs a brittle or a muddy Twin?

    www.audiosemantics.de
    I have been away for quite a while. A few years ago I sold my KPA and since then played my own small tube amp with a Bad Cat Unleash. Now I am back because the DI-profile that I made from my amp sounds very much convincing to me.

    Edited 4 times, last by fretboardminer ().

    Quote from Will_Chen

    There is a camp of users who believe you shouldn't make any adjustments to a profile as that is how the amp sounded when it was captured. I think that's incredibly close minded.

    I like profiles that sound perfect even without EQ and stuff added before or behind the Stack section. But for me this is not a philosophical question, just practical: that way I have the slots in the Stomp and Effect section free for "effect" type of manipulations, as I don't need them to create the fundamental sound. IMO you can do as much tweaking to a profile as you would do to a recorded guitar track when mixing in a studio.

    www.audiosemantics.de
    I have been away for quite a while. A few years ago I sold my KPA and since then played my own small tube amp with a Bad Cat Unleash. Now I am back because the DI-profile that I made from my amp sounds very much convincing to me.

    As far as i know, the reason for the bass increase is that low frequencies get attenuated when nearing the headroom limit of the power-section as they require more energy to amplify.
    Its existence in master volume amps is a different matter and i believe it's just convention that stuck - not all amps do it either (some Engls, VHT, Vox).


    As far as the KPA is concerned, i think most of us mistreat the device -
    I know its a magical profiler and all, but i can't say i care too much for the mojo or even the accuracy. I use it as a guitar preamp, and likely so are you :)
    So, as a guitar preamp, the KPA very much benefits from the extra control and i use it constantly to find what sounds good and not necessarily what sounds authentic.


    I'd love for the gain knob to act more in tandem with the actual amp, though, because a lot of pre-planning goes into gain staging and that usually can't be generalized by the KPA's one-size-fits-all gain knob.
    Most of us (i know of, anyway) try not to deviate too much from the profile's original gain setting because of that, and it's a fairly easy addition (have several profiles done without changing anything but the gain setting and mix between them in correspondence to the gain value on the KPA).

    "But dignity is difficult to maintain
    stamina requires constant upkeep
    repetition is boring
    and you pay for grace."

    Edited 2 times, last by Quitty ().

    Quote from Quitty


    I know it's a magical profiler and all, but ...


    I love magical things. I had a pair of pickups once handmade by the real Mr Bill Lawrence in the USA, originally Mr Willi Stich from Germany. He put some mojo into it and it sings. Just screams, "Play me! Play me!"


    One does not simply look a gift horse in the mouth. There is a point beyond which adding gain to an already distorted signal starts to muddy things up. But that added mud seems to add "girth" to the signal, makes it fatter, seems to make it chug in a thicker voice. Sure there's a lot more hiss and fizz and sputter, but you' ll mainly hear that if you put your ear up to the cone. Standing and playing a little further away, it barely annoys. You might not even notice it.


    That girth, or fatness, to the tone could be the bass frequencies that Mr CK is talking about. It's sort of added body to the sound, but not something tangible. It's like mud forming layers, it makes things fatter, but might not be in a symmetric fashion, the layers could be unevenly stacked, or the stones within might not be lining up evenly. Sort of like the grain in a wood -- might be too flat pieces, but the textures could be odd.


    They say bookmatched timber is the best for making guitars. Would be interesting to learn more about the Kemper's controls, especially whether it bookmatches the gain :)


    I apologise if this all sounds pseudo-scientific, it's because we are firmly in the realm of philosophy ;)


    Since we're in philosophy mode:
    I actually don't think there's a lot of intention or even science behind the first available tube amp circuits in the 50's and 60's.
    I think Leo Fender (and later Jim Marshall, too) expanded on what was available up to that point of time. Plus a good portion of trial and error.

    Quote from Ingolf

    Since we're in philosophy mode:
    I actually don't think there's a lot of intention or even science behind the first available tube amp circuits in the 50's and 60's.
    I think Leo Fender (and later Jim Marshall, too) expanded on what was available up to that point of time. Plus a good portion of trial and error.


    Yep, I'd be willing to bet on this one too.

    Go for it now. The future is promised to no one. - Wayne Dyer



    When turning the gain knob of a tube amp to the right, it will add bass to the guitar or take away high end from the guitar (depends how you see it)
    From a perspective of playability this is a drawback. The opposite is needed, and often achieved with a treble booster or tube screamer, mainly cutting bass from the guitar to create a nicer distortion.
    Also the gain knob of the ProCo Rat provides this inverse behavior: Adding mid and treble when more gain is dialed in.


    The gain control of the Profiler behaves neutral, it does not color the tone when a different gain is dialed in.
    I cannot see a single drawback in that.
    Why would rigs sound worse when giving more gain by a neutral gain control?
    It acts just in the middle between a gain with cab and a treble booster.


    Often my impression with real tube amps is, that sounds get incredibly thin, when the gain is turned down.
    I have no idea what the purpose of that should be. And since we do not necessarily want to takeover all aspects of a technique, without questioning it first, I did not takeover this behaviour, because it does not make any sense to me.


    Maybe someone could point out rigs, where rigs loose it's definition, when dialing more gain, but it shouldn't do so.


    PS: There is for sure many rigs that sound awful with more gain. That's because these amps were never designed to sound well with a certain gain.

    Edited once, last by ckemper ().

    Quote from ckemper


    Maybe someone could point out rigs, where rigs loose it's definition, when dialing more gain, but it shouldn't do so.


    PS: There is for sure many rigs that sound awful with more gain. That's because these amps were never designed to sound well with a certain gain.


    I think this would hold true for any rig. If you just max out everything or tweak without analysing the interaction between different controls, there's the danger that you'll end up with a sub-optimal sound.


    And that's what I was driving at in my original post, i.e. a lot of the criticism aimed at the Kemper Profiler seems directed at the fact that tweaking anything after a profile is created is a waste of time and does not sound like a "real" amplifier.


    I spent a lot of time going through the manuals (basic and reference) and was quite interested in some of the settings that are buried beneath the "home" screen. Seems to me like there's a lot more to do than tweak bass, mid and treble levels. Also a lot of effects and the ability to pair up different amps and cabs and EQ them. This seems to be in sync with my hopes that the machine will be able to function as a tone creator as well as a profiler.

    Besides the examples sought by Mr Kemper of things going downhill, I would like to hear some instance of stock profiles being modified to sound better than the original too, if anyone has some :)

    There is one profile I modified The Cream JTA-45.

    I like this profile because it sounds great at any gain setting.


    I agree that most profile's don't do well with the gain pushed more then a few clicks.


    Here are the changes I made to it.


    Original settings


    Definition 5.0____ Power Sagging 0.0____ Pick <0.0>____ Compressor 0.0____ Clarity 0.0____ Tube shape 3.3____ Tube Bias 0.0 ____ Direct Mix 0.0


    Modified


    Definition 2.7____ Power Sagging 0.0____ Pick <0.0> ____ Compressor 4.1____Clarity 4.3____ Tube shape 3.3____ Tube Bias 0.0____ Direct Mix 0.0



    I'm not sure but I think Geraldo's Cream JTA-45 on the rig exchange is the Modified one I shared with Him.