To Keep or not to Keep .... * RESOLVED *

    I agree with the others who suggested that you will never get the latency out of the Kemper that you desire in the next several years. There is no plan for a 2.0 in the near future, and there is a long list of user requests that would be higher priority than your latency request.


    If it only affects your recording and the KPA works for you live, you could track with your low latency Pod and reamp with the Kemper to get a better sound. That's the only solution I can think of for you.

    I hate emojis, but I hate being misunderstood more. :)

    Like 1

    KPA is for recording only. Tube amps for live. Hell will freeze over before I use anything other than a real tube amp live. :D Aside from having used a JC120 for cleans I've never played anything but tube amps live. I use a vintage Fender Champ for practicing at home.


    KPA was strictly so that:
    1) My friggin' neighbors don't throw hissy fits over hearing amps bleeding through my window when recording keeper-tracks
    2) To have more flexibility in tone control
    3) To have a better amp sound than a POD for songwriting. Listening to that POD is worse than having my left nut dragged across a chalk board.


    Something else may be in play here besides just latency. I'll need to spend more time playing but it seems as if the KPA is....not sure how to explain this....not treating things linearly....as if one moment it will react as I expect and the next moment it starts doing....something...that is giving the impression of latency or compression on the attack of solo notes. Very strange. I suppose if the processor is struggling to keep up with complex algorithms it might explain some of this, but that would be wildly speculating. Maybe that's why there is variable latency? I'm not sure how to even interpret what variable latency is supposed to mean. Does that mean variable based on the rig definition (which would rather mean a fixed latency for any given rig that can vary depending on configuration) or rather does it mean the latency can vary dynamically while playing a specific rig? And if the latter, is there any general way to avoid it? For example do you have to turn the stomp and effect sections OFF entirely, even if they have nothing enabled? Are there certain playing behaviors that can cause latency to temporarily extend, etc? Really, just not sure how to interpret the variable latency concept. All I know is something strange is going on - and the origin is not between my ears.


    BTW, I first noticed this when using headphones directly into the KPA, so it doesn't have anything to do with my DAW.


    Sonic

    Well, the hyper-sensitivity to latency does seem to be an awful handicap to have. I sympathize, but I just don't see a solution to be had with the Kemper. It wasn't really designed for people with your condition and I don't expect any accomodations to be made in the future.

    I hate emojis, but I hate being misunderstood more. :)

    When a company like Kemper work on new software, they'll add things / change things based on user needs and the rest of the market developing around them so as they can keep a saleable, current product. It's good business sense in the social media world.


    If you look at the feature request parts of the forum, you'll see lots of people asking for delays (more than done!), editors, tone stack profiling, reverbs, fx re-do's, vst implementation etc. I don't think I've seen anyone apart from you complaining about the latency. The fact that so many 100% tube heads have said 'finally, this is it' with the Kemper means that your perception is highly unusual or perhaps unique. As the company is not been flooded (or even slowly trickled) with people raising this as an issue tells me that they're not likely to throw time and money at solving something that (big picture) isn't a problem. Especially as you're saying you'd never use such a device live - lots of pros do so quite happily so this is another clue that you're never going to be 100% happy with modelling of any kind. Which is entirely fair enough but they're likely to believe you'll not be around long enough anyway to bother working on this.


    Out of interest, just how fast are you playing? I'm not trying to be cheeky here - I cannot be disparaging about another persons playing as I'm just a keen amateur who struggles with speed so please believe I'm not trying to belittle you here. It's just that I see some amazing players on here and elsewhere online who happily play at the speed of light with a smile on their face with this thing. How are you different to them? Either you're going demonstrably quicker than anyone else or they're able to cope with the inadequacy of the Kemper in silence to the extent that they tour with it. Which would be a strange choice because it would surely drive them just as nuts as it's driving you yet you appear to not be getting 'yeah, me too +1' here.


    One of the more interesting YouTube videos was the recent Anderson's one where they a/b'd the Kemper with tubes. A pretty tidy player got it wrong. All. The. Time. Just saying :)

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    That you think it's behaving differently says that your sensitivity to latency is more of a sensitivity to transient frequency response.


    That's why I suggested slapping a green scream in front of a profile you like and seeing how it affects the feel. It should result in things suddenly feeling much more immediate. This is because the brain associates treble (along with a more complete frequency response range) with proximity. If the transient part of a note lacks that bite then it makes something sound like it's happening "in the pocket" or behind the beat, like there's a delay there.


    Now, you can mess around with the pick attack option as well as the other amp parameters such as compression and definition to create a sound that's much more fluid (but still somewhat dynamic due to the transients) and it can feel immediate and like there's zero latency. At the same time if a profile has a softer transient sound it can leave you feeling as if there's greater latency than there in point of fact is. In both situations the latency will be identical, just the frequency response will fool your brain.


    Beyond this there are ways to push the latency up there. Adding FX that require a lot of processing or their own pre-calculation buffer such as pitch shifters for instance can substantially affect latency. If you don't have constant latency enabled then the Kemper will vacillate slightly as it distributes resources to the task, but this is really more important for multitrack re-ampling. In general without the pitch shift FX I've not noticed the latency to reach as high as 10ms which is the point at which I start to find it offputting.


    Anway, forgetting all of that. It really doesn't matter. You're looking for a reason to not have a Kemper. But you really don't need one. It's your money, you don't have to justify saving yourself a hill of beans. Just return/get rid of it and move on. You shouldn't be spending time noticing and thinking about the tools, you should be focused on creating.

    I'm especially noticing it on sextuplets in triplet pairs, quasi palm muting. But when it decides to rear it's head I'm also sensing it sometimes on upper strings/registers as well. It may not be latency alone, or something else, but can't fathom what.


    It's not all about speed, there's style and precision involved. Somebody could practice 25 hours a day and not develop unless they study and do the hard work in figuring out how great players achieve their tones. It really is largely in the fingers/hands. Takes a lot of years and discipline to figure out, a never ending quest. But when you start amassing this stuff over a period of many years, you tend to notice when something isn't right/normal. You can then use your skills to potentially figure out what is happening because you know what you are intentionally doing that triggers it.


    This isn't something a video or a recording is going to convey, not at all. As I said, it's a combination of visual, feel and sound that aren't working together right under certain situations when soloing. Really bizarre. I'm not giving up quite yet, but was just wondering if anything is on the radar that might address this latency thing or the S/PDIF limitation. And while I understand the sentiments expressed by some as to there not being a ROI for Kemper to address concerns apparently voiced by a limited few users, I do disagree strongly that S/PDIF is not a high demand complaint. I've seen all over the place, in fact I'd say it's probably in the top few hardware issues I've seen voiced.


    Anyway, will keep working on things to see if I can identify what is going on or how to configure the KPA or my DAW to deal with whatever it is that I'm encountering.


    Oh, and thanks Per for the advice & explanation, understood about the high frequency perception.


    Sonic

    Quote from Nikos

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    Wow. Thanks for posting this, Nikos.


    I love Paul "Blithely Unaffected by Latency" Gilbert. He is such a humble, gracious and down to Earth guy...who also just happens to be a bona fide virtuoso. Very funny guy, as well. The man's enthusiasm for his art is absolutely infectious. It is always great to listen to him discuss his influences, including a shout out to my main man, YJM.


    PG never sounded better...thanks to that smart looking lunchbox sitting on his table top.




    Cheers,
    John

    Edited once, last by Tritium ().

    Quote from Michael_dk

    Hey, can't remember if this has been suggested yet - but do you have any gate stomps active?


    And please double-check that the "global" noise gate is set at zero!

    No stomps active. As to the gate, I actually experimented with this, still am a bit. There are some interesting impacts between having it off entirely, having it on moderately, and having it set for full dampening.

    Quote from Per

    That you think it's behaving differently says that your sensitivity to latency is more of a sensitivity to transient frequency response.

    This is why I suggested ensuring that power sagging be reduced to a minimum, Per. Same goes for raising Definition 'cause higher frequencies come into play earlier than on vintage-sounding amps.


    Sonic, the latency isn't variable; it varies from Rig to Rig due to various combinations of FX being used and so on.


    Also, I suggested direct monitoring from your speakers again 'cause interfaces' direct-monitoring options (and computers are even worse) include the A/D and D/A conversion required to route the signal elsewhere. My guess is that this'd usually be between 2 and 3ms due to the two sets of conversion involved.

    Keep your friends close and your monitors closer. Damn, I was hanging back with my particle accelerator idea just before the reverb.
    But most of you dogs stayed on the chain. Solid Effort Gentlemen.
    Last time I checked Keith Richards still plays so far behind the beat he's actually ahead of the one coming up. Play nice. Muddy :thumbup:

    Quote from SonicExporer

    I totally understand how many people won't even be bothered by sub 5ms latency. It depends on a number of factors. If you tend to play blues or legato style solos you'd never even notice anything. Probably not notice even 10ms. But if you play very precise, fast passages, especially quasi-muted runs or fast repetitious patterns,,etc, then latency can be maddening. More so for people who are used to recording and hearing instant reaction in the cans. On stage it's a whole other thing, but then so is everything else flying around in the air. Recording is a whole other animal, the two cannot be compared.

    What you describe means that you just are not able to synchronize to others, not even a playback. Not being able to compensate latency is killing. You should not just sell the Kemper, no, its best to sell the guitars as well. To claim that blues is kindof sloppy and inprecise timing-wise tells me, that you have no clue what groove means, especially not laid-back groove.


    Example: you would not have been able to play on a stage with other musicians at the analog and non-in-ear-times. Why? Because being away from the own amp and the other amps and the drumkit by just a couple of meters introduces analog latency in the range of milli-seconds. Now move around, get away from your own amp and approach the drums - then the audience. Ever changing latency, and any good musician will compensate for that - without even thinking.


    Imagine a full orchestra on a generous stage. The musicians are spread apart by up to 20 meters , some are 10 meters away from the conductor, others are very close. This means the analog latency for the musicians related to each other and the conductor is in the range of say 3 to 60 (!) ms. How come they are able to play like *one instrument*?


    Think about why you sound so horrible. Its all about the weakest link in the chain.

    Ne travaillez jamais.

    Like 3
    Quote from Tritium

    Wow. Thanks for posting this, Nikos.
    I love Paul "Blithely Unaffected by Latency"

    No probs dude..if you google around you will see many other shredders using now the Kemper.I have seen Marty Friedman,Vernon Reid and GusG using it.


    And yes..Paul (like all real musicians) is the most humble & funny guy one can imagine.If one really loves music his ego will be left in chains.. ;)