Kemper vs. Real Amp Test - Cameron CCV

    I will do a separate blind kemper vs real amp test sometime in the future. I'm just new here and posted this two clips to show you guys what Mark and I were working on and had a sample of the real and profile to share.

    Will those profiles be in a commercial pack?

    We found that some amps like the Aldrich just requires one profile, doing multiple profiles of it since its a single channel high gain amp would be redundant, in fact it is because we have done it and they all come out virtually identical. There are other amps like our modded 2 channel bassman that has a clean, low gain and high gain setting/channels that will will sell as a pack.


    Here are clips of our bassman that we are actually profiling this week. This is the actual amp as you can see not the profile.


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    Here it is with Mark's overdrive pedal pushing it which will be part of the bassman pack we sell if Mark decided it comes out sounding good.


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    Quote from pacocito

    This is exactly what I reported to support when I tried to DI profile my bass amps.


    And those frequencies are very important for the bass.

    I bought the KPA 2 weeks ago and feel almost the same as you both.
    Have to say that it's an awesome tool and I'm having a lot of fun with it in the studio and live.


    But there is certainly a lack of this "feel" "room" "3-Dimensionality" and especially "something at the bottom end" when listening in my studio environment through flat/high quality monitors and headphones. Especially when muting the rhythm guitar section recorded through a valve Amp and decent preamps and replacing them by kempered tracks (profile of the same amp, same mic positions). Are there some other engineers which tried the same test?


    The real one just sounds a tad fuller, smoother (less brittle), more dynamic and has that tiny little amount of room in it which makes it fit in the song more easily. These are all small differences but all together are quiet noticeable for me.


    Ive tried now a lot of things and when listening to the KPA tracks without having the sound of the real one around for ABX testing it nearly does not bother me at all. But when I then switch on the real amp again I think "yeah thats it".


    I tried to alter my (guitar driven) mixes in a way to let the kemper shine, and to some extent I succeeded, but something was still missing.


    After some days and these A/B checks with the real tubeamps in the mix I knew what to look for when checking sounds. So it's something I hear also in other profiles. For highgain its this kind of "compressed" "overtightness" lack of roundness".
    Don't want to offend anyone here we're talking about nuances, but in a critical studio situation with a lot of guitar tracks they can make a difference IMHO.


    I've read now the whole thread and want to put together and maybe bring in some ideas to improve the things a bit which I think are a bit lacking compared to the real thing in a recording situation:


    1) 3-Dimensionality/Room: What about putting a litte bit of reverb/delay on the recorded track with a high quality processor/vst? Just like 3-5%
    and/or using kind of (Tape-)saturation plugins to improve that? I also found an advice from another member here who was saying the Blockfish VST from http://www.digitalfishphones.com/main.php?item=2&subItem=5 can lead to better results. EDIT: maybe also a plugin like the UBK1 (Kush) or TRANSIFY (JST plugins) could help.
    1) a) For users with the poweramp: if you mic a cab and use the kemper only as amp alone, this seems to be a heck of a lot better than without, at least what I think.


    2) Tonal differences: Dynamic EQ for palm mutes/etc. Normal EQ for the general lack of low frequencies and or 100-120 Hz boost before the Amp.


    3) For the kind of "compressed" "overtightness" of highgain sounds I'm hearing I don't really know what there could be done, maybe they will get better after trying point 1+2.


    PS: yeah i played a lot with all the settings on the kemper itself... I also tried a variety of profiles on the RE, also from members like mbritt, wagener, sinmix, ola, topjimi.. etc. I might try some commercial profiles too, maybe I'm getting easier to the sound i want.. but til then:


    This should be a constructive post, I don't want to offend anyone and really only want to help to get even better profiles :D The KPA is an awesome amp and it's really awesome how far we got til now. But at least for me there are some things which can and should be improved. It will remain my main amp for live gigging/prepro/ and sometimes even on studio recordings, but for now I'm happier with the real amps for my rhythm guitar recordings which are a big part of the mixes I'm doing.


    Cheers! :)

    Welcome @Erazorblade !


    Agreee 100% with your post, your findings sound familiar.... :thumbup:


    I'm not giving up on my KPA yet, making forward progress but it is taking WAY more time & effort than I ever expected. For those guys who are into the higher gain, deep drop tuned, scooped stuff the KPA may have a few shortcomings at times - but it is even more frustrating when looking for that Classic Metal sound where the midrange is rich and complex, the critical focal point of that type of tone.


    Sonic

    Edited once, last by SonicExporer: Clarification ().

    Such a great assessment. You aren't being "offensive" of course (only to people for whom the kemper is a kind of religion I would assume). My experience is pretty much the same. Especially for rhythm recording it's real amps whenever accessible.

    Quote from Erazorblade


    This should be a constructive post, I don't want to offend anyone and really only want to help to get even better profiles :D The KPA is an awesome amp and it's really awesome how far we got til now. But at least for me there are some things which can and should be improved. It will remain my main amp for live gigging/prepro/ and sometimes even on studio recordings, but for now I'm happier with the real amps for my rhythm guitar recordings which are a big part of the mixes I'm doing.


    Cheers! :)


    I agree 100% with your post too.

    Quote from SonicExporer


    For those guys who are into the higher gain, deep drop tuned, scooped stuff the KPA may have a few shortcomings at times - but it is even more frustrating when looking for that Classic Metal sound where the midrange is rich and complex, the critical focal point of that type of tone.


    Sonic

    All the full time professional metal bands touring the world right now using the Kemper don't seem to have the same problems you're having.

    Quote from Guitartone

    All the full time professional metal bands touring the world right now using the Kemper don't seem to have the same problems you're having.

    Could be they're not looking for that particular tone @SonicExporer is looking for - or the tradeoff is well worth it in a touring setting. Or they are simply not bothered by the potential deficiencies.

    I've noticed personally when going from the PowerHead to my Mission Gemini 1-P that the speaker and the room when driven well give a real warmth and roundness to the profile which makes it almost indistinguishable from a real amp.


    Where things have been different is when I record direct with the Kemper. The room or another speaker is no longer able to hide some of the things that "expose" the Kemper as a digital emulation device. It made me go from being really excited about all the profiles at my fingertips to being extremely selective. There were just too many profiles that sounded brilliant when played through my cab only to make me wince when going direct. You realize how easy it is to make a lackluster profile. The Kemper certainly requires time, work, and an expert ear when profiling because it appears to be very easy to miss the mark.


    I wish Kemper was a little more forthcoming on threads like this as to what techniques can be used to better profile an amp. Then again, the official Kemper profiles that come with the KPA tend to get blown away by guys who either sell profiles or have honed their craft. Kemper's response thus far has been "it should sound indistinguishable" without providing much further advice, which is too bad.


    Michael Wagener just needs to write a book for everyone explaining how he replicates the amp tones because it requires a lot of different methods and experimentation, so much so that he's basically said it would take too long to explain in an interview.

    Quote from Guitartone

    All the full time professional metal bands touring the world right now using the Kemper don't seem to have the same problems you're having.

    But just because someone plays in a "professional" metal band and tours doesn't mean they are as particular about tone... Sometimes people weren't even part of the profiling process/setting up the tone. And most importantly -- plenty of 'pro' bands don´t use the kemper live or in the studio. Yet we don't see them come out and announce why they don't do so... even if they've tried it, it seems to me.. where as so many bands that use the kemper are pretty vocal about it.


    Also Metallica uses the Axe Fx 2 for live shows for quite a while now. This doesn't stop Tremonti from saying he can "hear the difference" when asked about the Kemper. And I don't think the experience of Metallica somehow invalidates that of Tremonti due to being a bigger band anyway.. neither does it show that the Axe fx 2 is better or as good as the kemper.



    Tried to follow what Wagener described.. (even though the profiles in his pack aren't so much my kind of tone) with a bit of guesswork.. no better results. The kemper is consistently lacking in the areas described so well by others. It's a bit like using a different pickup when I go from real amp to kemper -- differences are subtle, but they do make a difference and they matter to me as a player.. and I am only talking about miced up tones anyway.

    I agree with a lot of what has been said in the last few replies. It seems most of the complaints come from people who are looking to use the KPA as a direct recording device, and who have a very specific type of tone where there tends to be some struggles within the KPA. I'm still not giving up yet, am getting closer. But as already stated, it is incredibly frustrating for a variety of reasons. It would be helpful to have a better understanding of how to profile, how to refine and more importantly how to tweak. Just having a brief description in the manual isn't always enough. I'm finding the tiniest of adjustments can make a difference (in some instances less than 0.1). And sometimes when one setting is adjusted it throws off the perception of something else, so it becomes maddening trying to understand what all the controls are doing and how they can interact with each other.


    I'm getting very close, still not sure I'll be able to push the KPA over the line of acceptability for me but am optimistically hopeful and not giving up yet.


    One thing I learned that is concerning is the KPA cannot profile both preamp and output tube distortion simultaneously. That's the very essence of the type of tones I'm after. It was the early 80's Classic Metal tones where some artists had the amps pushing both on the preamp AND power amp stages. Dokken, Dio, Maiden, etc. If the KPA admittedly has a limitation in this area, then how am I to expect to achieve those types of direct recorded tones? I suspect this may be why I'm not quite yet finding what I'm looking for in the KPA. There is an unmistakable element - that classic Marshall grind/snarl, while also retaining that top end chimey, harmonic sweetness of a tube amp, that I have yet to locate using the KPA.


    Just my opinion and findings so far...


    Sonic

    Edited 3 times, last by SonicExporer: Clarification ().

    Quote from Michael_dk

    Could be they're not looking for that particular tone @SonicExporer is looking for - or the tradeoff is well worth it in a touring setting. Or they are simply not bothered by the potential deficiencies.

    No disrespect to anyone, but the tone you speak of, I doubt that he can get it with anything. It's just not there, you can have all the amps in the world (which you do have inside the Kemper), but some people will never get that tone. It's always called that tone, Have they ever gotten it from something or using a special amplifier? no they didn't, they're in never ending search for something they themselves don't even know.

    Quote from Dean_R

    No disrespect to anyone, but the tone you speak of, I doubt that he can get it with anything. It's just not there, you can have all the amps in the world (which you do have inside the Kemper), but some people will never get that tone. It's always called that tone, Have they ever gotten it from something or using a special amplifier? no they didn't, they're in never ending search for something they themselves don't even know.

    I have no problems getting the tones with real gear, that's not the issue, never was. The reason I got the KPA was primarily to alleviate the inconvenience of going to the studio, and to alleviate complaining neighbors when using real rigs at home. In short was motivated by the ability to track from home at any hours of the day.