That said, Kemper is not obsolete or even close. The Kemper has it's own thing that neural networks can't do, that's internal amp edits.
This is quite an important point. While the arrival of neural network techniques is going to enable lots of interesting stuff in the music sphere, I think the fact that Kemper uses a "tuned model" approach means that you can get in there and make all kinds of useful adjustments to the behaviour a profile to suit your application.
There is a one but big advantage with NAM over the KPA .
There is no magical and difficult refining process. It sound's good right away.
DamianGreda I downloaded Version 5 from Github. What do I do now? I want to give it a try but it looks like I need an IT degree to even install it. Definitely intimidating to me before I even get started. Tried reading the ReadMe file. Ran the Setup.py file. But still don't know how to use it. What do I need to do?
EDIT:
OK found it now.
I had downloaded the source code instead of the installer.
Installed then realised that I have actually already tried it (my memory isn't what it used to be 
). It didn't show up in my Spotlight search so I must have uninstalled after the last test.
The latency is totally unusable for me at the moment. I seem to remember the same issue the first time I tried it too which is probably why I just uninstalled straight away.
As some others have said, I have nothing against progress. However, the best solution for me (and many others) is to learn to use your current solution properly instead of searching for the next magic bullet that will make me sound incredible.
Even poor equipment used well can often sound better than the best equipment used badly. If I plug into Steve Lukather or Mike Landau's rig and they plug into a Peavey Bandit I would bet the mortgage that they would still sound better than me 
.
I'd rather be playing than constantly trying to find a newer better amp modeller. Having said that, if advances in technology can be used to improve my current solution (in this case Kemper but I would feel the same if I was currently using Fractal, Line 6 or Neural DSP) then I am all for it. I will be interested to see how things develop for both Kemper and NAM over the coming months/years and hope they are both successful.
Beware folks , this will end up in the 'drama zone' part of the forum , let's be constructive ?
not the worst post in this thread 
DamianGreda I downloaded Version 5 from Github. What do I do now? I want to give it a try but it looks like I need an IT degree to even install it. Definitely intimidating to me before I even get started. Tried reading the ReadMe file. Ran the Setup.py file. But still don't know how to use it. What do I need to do?
You want to install vst3 plugin or setup an environment for training your own amps?
You can download plugin here: https://github.com/sdatkinson/…lugin/releases/tag/v0.7.1
Thanks Damian. I was editing my post when you replied.
For training you have to follow the steps :
1. First instal Anaconda : https://www.anaconda.com/
Then follow the steps from github site
: How to use (Local)
Installation uses Anaconda for package management.
For computers with a CUDA-capable GPU (recommended):
conda env create -f environment_gpu.yml
Otherwise, for a CPU-only install (will train much more slowly):
conda env create -f environment_cpu.yml
Then activate the environment you've created with
conda activate nam
Train models (GUI)
After installing, you can open a GUI trainer by running
nam
from the terminal.Wheresthedug please beare in mind that for now plugin will only work with 48kHz SR session as training process was designed fot that SR . This will change as Steve will implement oversampling in the plugin to support other sample rates.
OK. I generally run at 44.1 so maybe that is causing the latency.
EDIT: just tried at 48k but still get >500ms latency and also introduces unwanted distortion.
do you guys know how to reduce latency and still get a great tone ? focusrite vs ssl2+ on my laptops gave me a totally different experience in latency, sync scratch ...
reducing the number of samples is a a way to reduce latency on asio , but to what extent ? 64 gave me 3 ms and no noise , sounds ok.
going back to the KPA was like driving a Bentley 
do you guys know how to reduce latency and still get a great tone ? focusrite vs ssl2+ on my laptops gave me a totally different experience in latency, sync scratch ...
reducing the number of samples is a a way to reduce latency on asio , but to what extent ? 64 gave me 3 ms and no noise , sounds ok.
going back to the KPA was like driving a Bentley
yes, I can get very low latency normally on my Ultralite Mk5 and Mac
As some others have said, I have nothing against progress. However, the best solution for me (and many others) is to learn to use your current solution properly instead of searching for the next magic bullet that will make me sound incredible.
So true. The same with plugins. The latest ssl emulation from dev A is so much better than old Waves version you hear from many wanna be pro on forums. And still that old Waves version is used by some pro mixers and they get that pro sound amateurs dream about. Or they just use stock plugins in their daw. Anyway most pro mixers approach is learn your tools you have now and stick with them and don’t waste time or money on the latest stuff. It won’t make you sound better. It’s not the tools. It’s your knowledge that Matters. Your or your band won’t sound better with the latest and any audience/listener won’t hear any difference nor will care what’s been used. All they care is if they like your music or not.
, I can get very low latency normally on my Ultralite Mk5 and Mac
real time kernels seems to be much better at this, windows is struggling with inconsistent results , given cpu type, buses, soundcard & drivers...
the 1st company putting NAM in a pedal format will win the race ...
Does NAM computing take place in the CPU or in soundcard's DSP ? staking plugins leads to cracks as soon as I hit 5% of my ( old ) cpu.
What?
A pun linking the current discussion to the most recent batch of spam comments hitting the forum.
yeah just saw LOL.
As some others have said, I have nothing against progress. However, the best solution for me (and many others) is to learn to use your current solution properly instead of searching for the next magic bullet that will make me sound incredible.
Even poor equipment used well can often sound better than the best equipment used badly. If I plug into Steve Lukather or Mike Landau's rig and they plug into a Peavey Bandit I would bet the mortgage that they would still sound better than me
I'd rather be playing than constantly trying to find a newer better amp modeller. Having said that, if advances in technology can be used to improve my current solution (in this case Kemper but I would feel the same if I was currently using Fractal, Line 6 or Neural DSP) then I am all for it. I will be interested to see how things develop for both Kemper and NAM over the coming months/years and hope they are both successful.
This.
It's an old trope - but EVH had crap equipment at the start. Heck - distortion was *invented* due to a broken mixing desk channel. Link Wray poked holes in his speaker with a pencil.
I like new and shiny stuff as much as the next person and agree that advancements are good, necessary and inevitable. The reality is.....no one cares what you use. Your pristine tones while playing pentatonic box 1 ramblings over a 12 bar in A minor are still boring.
Creating a crap song on the best gear in the world is still a crap song.
Wheresthedug there must be something wit your setup. I've checked NAM at my old laptop and with buffer 128 have 20 ms latency.
So true. The same with plugins. The latest ssl emulation from dev A is so much better than old Waves version you hear from many wanna be pro on forums. And still that old Waves version is used by some pro mixers and they get that pro sound amateurs dream about. Or they just use stock plugins in their daw. Anyway most pro mixers approach is learn your tools you have now and stick with them and don’t waste time or money on the latest stuff. It won’t make you sound better. It’s not the tools. It’s your knowledge that Matters. Your or your band won’t sound better with the latest and any audience/listener won’t hear any difference nor will care what’s been used. All they care is if they like your music or not.
But for studio use just for reuse the tone :
1. the more faithful the better since you need the same tone as with live tracking with AMP( you need the same tone not almost the same to do some punch ins and so on)
2. the faster and less problematic profile/train the better (refining is very problematic process)
3. You can track and bounce several tracks without the need for expensive equipment and without wasting time
So for live - yes KPA is very well designed ecosystem
For studio use NAM is better in terms of time and reproduction fidelity and simplicity of making "profiles"
real time kernels seems to be much better at this, windows is struggling with inconsistent results , given cpu type, buses, soundcard & drivers...
the 1st company putting NAM in a pedal format will win the race ...
Does NAM computing take place in the CPU or in soundcard's DSP ? staking plugins leads to cracks as soon as I hit 5% of my ( old ) cpu.
There are some DIY implementations and comercial like MOD DWARF.
So my last word. I don't know what Chris has some ace up his sleeve. From my observations, KPA has already become a mature product and will become a classic in the world of Guitar-Audio like Acces Virus , and the whole team will go to work on another project, not necessarily about guitars. I don't think the KPA design will suddenly change and I don't believe the team will be able to implement neural network playback in assembler. It comes from the fact that Chris just made something beautiful out of what he knows and which was already a bit outdated at the moment. This shows how you can squeeze the last juices out of this technology. But I have no illusions that the world will go in a new direction and it will be neural networks.
The only solution I see is for Christoph's mind to just use the current tools and use it as creatively as in the case of KPA. Automating additional parameters for the amplifier, etc. But this will require giving up independent participation in programming or learning how to program neural networks and working on it. It seems impossible to me at the moment. I'd like to be wrong. P.S. Both the acces and KPA products are based on the same processor architecture.
So my last word. I don't know what Chris has some ace up his sleeve. From my observations, KPA has already become a mature product and will become a classic in the world of Guitar-Audio like Acces Virus , and the whole team will go to work on another project, not necessarily about guitars. I don't think the KPA design will suddenly change and I don't believe the team will be able to implement neural network playback in assembler. It comes from the fact that Chris just made something beautiful out of what he knows and which was already a bit outdated at the moment. This shows how you can squeeze the last juices out of this technology. But I have no illusions that the world will go in a new direction and it will be neural networks.
The only solution I see is for Christoph's mind to just use the current tools and use it as creatively as in the case of KPA. Automating additional parameters for the amplifier, etc. But this will require giving up independent participation in programming or learning how to program neural networks and working on it. It seems impossible to me at the moment. I'd like to be wrong. P.S. Both the acces and KPA products are based on the same processor architecture.
Chris is at namm rubin shoulders with Steve Ack. I read someone saying he was helping kemper with something or in talks. I think Christoph is going to end this conversation very soon. He not a stupid guy an things take years for development an research. Theres a big issue for Chris too, If he upgraes that means all the past profiles and creators an what they done will seem obsolete in guitarists fussy eyes. He has alot of weight on his shoulders really. But hes been forced into a corner now wich is a good thing an maybe time for change. I love the lunchbox, I have modded mine an spent alot on it. I dont want to upgrade, an function wise it still beats anything out there. I just want a profiling update. If guys are using tone x audio file to refine an I have used NAMs to get better results that kempers own then that tells me the hardware can deliver the goods. With NAM, guys are experimenting with the audio file an found changes to that have resulted in better results that the stock NAM WAV file. This may just be about refining, Thats all. Im hoping Kemper just upgrades the profing algorithm or whatever it needs too. I highly doubt he is going to lay down an be beaten in the field an market he developed. Not going to happen.......
