OK Testing FW 3.0! [How Kemper works? All amps sound similar]?

Gregor started this thread. What's more, his cabs comparison video directly relates to the topic he started when he began the thread.

@sinmix - please clarify exactly what the issue is you have with the Kemper. No nods and whispers, hints, winks or likes. Just come out and say it, in simple terms for us simple folk - because we're all lost and it sounds like there's something important we should all know about and Kemper should definitely know about. But right now we don't and this oblique referencing is becoming infuriating.

It has never been anything about "war". I followed this thread to learn something. I never said that the "theories" might be or not be true or that anybody has no right to criticize. Humanity actually needs critics to progress. Nobody should be put down or silent for the inconvenient truth (if there is one).

Nevertheless, I can't see any contribution towards the topic by showing a comparisation of four real miced cabinets. There are other threads covering that (there are actually a few specially dedicated towards that in the Commercial Profiles or Other Gear section), so let us just focus on actual input here. This thread is alredy 15 pages long... and it's not getting better by posting stuff that does not bring us further.

I am indeed inquisitive what's behind the magic so keep it comming. (The actual content!)

What he is saying is that amp is about 20% of the tone, the rest is mic/mic placement and the cab. He also says that amp part of Kemper does not translate 100% of the nuances of real amp (tone wise) but Kemper has almost perfect cab/mic simulation and this is what he was trying to show.
I tend to agree, I did not sell any of me proper amps. Most of the tone comes from mic/cab, the nuances are in reaction of the amp to the playing/guitar and Kemper is far from perfect here.

i totally agree too......I can't find a clean profile to sound decent....or close enough to my deluxe.Every clean profile that i hear with the new method(i don't care about studio profiles ,i use real amp and cabinet.) has always gain in it's sound(no matter what) there is no twang at all.....and in comparison with my real fender amp loses every battle.The distorted profiles have the characteritic that sinmix and mdeerock claim.Kemper might do a great job direct to a p.a but for a real amp and cabinet.....nope.I have thought several times to sell the unit but something kept me away from doing it cause i thought with the new method the problem will be solved....but for me nope.

I just treat is as another amp, not a replacement for all amps. Where it shines is when I take a profile of my existing amp, set up as I want to my own guitar/cab/mic and use that for recording/reamping. I'd not sell my Kemper, no, it's too convenient and it does not have any annoying characteristics of all other digital amps (inlc. Axe fx 2), it doesn't feel like playing a guitar synthesizer :). Some profiles I got from the net are quite nice too, but I use maybe 10 of them.

I promise I'll sell my amps when there is a digital amp which profiles, just like Kemper does, but knobs work the same as the profiled amp.

Quote from IGNANTIOS

i totally agree too......I can't find a clean profile to sound decent....or close enough to my deluxe.Every clean profile that i hear with the new method...there is no twang at all.....and in comparison with my real fender amp loses every battle.

Well, dear sir I beg to differ.

Profiles (my own and commercial ones) of my fender amp (bjr) or my peavey deltablues or.. don't loose any battle with the kemper. There is of course a difference when hearing a real amp with a real cab and no mike (amp in the room) and the kemper. There has to be, runs with the territory.

Twang? Even my kemper driven cheapo squier classic vibe tele delivers twang in every quantity. The old 70s strat does a better job, true. That is to be expected.
Clear sounds distorted? Yes there are such profiles but there are also perfectly clean ones. Since I'm not a friend of leaning on the gain I would have sold the kemper three years ago if it hadn't mastered this chore. Elementary is it not?
So if you want to follow Hank Marvin or the likes there's lots of stuff to do it with. Andy's Vibrolux 67, Armin's Fender 57 are always worth a try. I could add some rather refined examples of MBritt and M. Wagener. But I don't want to talk you into sth., just to speak my mind.

I do respect and value your observations and also your conclusions. But I had to comment on it. Could not Keep my mouth shut.!
And maybe: Hearing with ones own two ears is really not comparable to other peoples state of mind when hearing. I always have days when everthing sounds terrible. But that's me, not the kemper.
I also liked and valued sinmix, metalmikes and deadlights efforts and thoughts. and hope they won't give up. If there is room for improvement we should find and name it.

Have fun
Joachim

Sounds about right to me, Sinmix!

Chores,
Sam

From the manual:

Quote

Under the hood

In case you enjoy reading about technical details, below is a description of what the PROFILER is doing
during the profiling process:

During the first phase, you will hear white noise with a rising amplitude. The PROFILER is now collecting
data about the frequency response of the reference amp. The frequency response will change dramatically
as the gain increases. This is how the PROFILER learns about the circuitry of the reference amp and the
frequency response of the cabinet. Also, the characteristic impedance curve of the speaker, including its
feedback to the power amp, is detected in fine detail.

In the next phase, slowly pulsating white noise is sent to the Reference amp. The volume of the white noise
is set to a level at which the reference amp starts to distort. This is how the PROFILER learns about the
dynamic distortion curve of the tubes in the reference amplifier. Using this information, the PROFILER is
able to recreate that curve with the highest possible accuracy. This is also true for transistor-based and
digitally-modeled distortions.

In the third step, the PROFILER sends a complex tonal texture that follows a mathematically-based set
of rules to the reference amp. This texture creates unique interference patterns that allow the PROFILER
to take a “fingerprint” of the DNA of the reference amp’s particular sound. The distortion of the speaker,
along with the partial pattern of the loudspeaker diaphragm (also known as “cone breakup”) are excited
by this tonal mixture. They complete the characteristic interference pattern that the PROFILER will repro-
duce faithfully, once the measurements have been taken.

Display More

I guess that the signal sent in the third step is a "unique" signal that the kemper generates BASED ON the measurements of the first two steps.

Maybe, but it always sounded the same to me. Interesting theory, I'll have to investigate this further.

Cher,
Sam

Quote from HamerJo

There is of course a difference when hearing a real amp with a real cab and no mike (amp in the room) and the kemper. There has to be, runs with the territory.

Ignantios is comparing the twang of his real deluxe to a kemper's direct amp profile of the same amp (or similar fender amp with crystal clear clean sound) played through every guitar cabinet you can imagine, not through a FRFR. A fenderish clean direct amp profile through every guitar cabinet doesn't twang and it won't, because twang is a characteristic of tubes.

We all want from our machine to show it's maximum potential, that's why we make this discussion and research, i think noone disagrees about that.

there is a nice thread which called"strange metallic sound" and is located in the section "profiler related issues and troubles"" or something like that. I think it's a great example that some strange things can be heard when u use the kemper with a real cab.

I could be wrong but I thought that the "Strange metalic sound" thread was all about the aliasing issues that were present before FW 1.8?

Threads like this can be useful and result in positive changes, but I just think this thread is too confusing, too big for the Kemper team to be able to make heads or tails from. Heck I've been following it and I don't even know exactly what the issue (if there is an issue) is.

If anyone finds problems, or just things that need improving then it's best to make a new thread about it (and contact support), and of course back it up with examples and clear explanations of the problem.

Quote from IGNANTIOS

there is a nice thread which called"strange metallic sound" and is located in the section "profiler related issues and troubles"" or something like that. I think it's a great example that some strange things can be heard when u use the kemper with a real cab.

I myself have heard that metallic ringing, but only using Merged profiles made in one of the experimental 2.8 firmwares. Profiles done in 3.0x seem to have corrected the issue. Just so noone gets the wrong idea here.

Chimchimcharoo,
Sam

Truely it is hard to follow this thread. What's the exact issue?

I guess the message is : since the last firmware allows a true separation between amp and cab/mics, we notice that amp sounds are more similar than the real counterpart. As the cab/mics part is a huge part of the sound, this "weakness" of the kemper ampsim was masked in the past

I agree. It seems that some ppl believe swapping cab or amp profiles on merged profiles dont sound exactly like the resulting real life rig. And further speculation as to what the amp profile part does vs the cab profile, theorizing that the cab holds more of the tone than the amp and that all amp profiles have a similar gain structure.

I havent really listened to clips or tried anything myself. Ive been pretty content sticking to studio profiles without changing cab profiles. I always feel like each complete rig has its own sound - the distortion resembles the real world equivalent very well, and the feel is typically there. So i dont really know but i dont particularly care either.