Any plans for a Kemper 2 amp?

    Quote from sambrox


    A nice analogy is the video game console world. Back then when Microsoft came out with XBOX360 and had the most advanced and complicated controller, the best graphics, the most horsepower. The race was one of technology and number crunching. Nintendo decided they were tired of playing that game, so dropped out of that race. They released an 'underpowered' console with primitive graphics, but it could do something that the others couldn't : it had motion control and a very intuitive, simple, tactile interface. PS3 tried half-heartedly to get in on the act with the six axis (read Tone Match haha!), but it was too little, too late. Nintendo were out of the cycle and made a killing.


    What happened since then though... ;)


    [Blocked Image: https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/68664635.jpg]

    Additional features for the Kemper are just icing on the cake. Best piece of guitar-related gear I've ever bought.


    I also noticed the interest the parallel drawn between Kemper Amps and RME, both from Germany. I am extremely happy with the support offered for these units. I have no doubt in my mind that even if there was a Kemper 2, support for the current Kemper would continue within the limits of the existing hardware.


    New features like morph are also welcome. I have seen them in different iterations in other products, but the way that Kemper has implemented them is what's new about them.


    But as time has passed, I have noticed areas where the Kemper does have limitations. For example, the pitch FX are best in class. The reverbs and delays? Not so much.


    They are now working to remedy that with the delays, I do believe. Am sure everyone will be blown away come 5.0.

    Quote from MtotheEikel


    Yes, I see. However I wasn't talking about Steve Vai but about hobby and semi-pro players like (I guess) >80 or 90% of the forum users.


    In my opinion, the hobbyists and semi-pro's I've observed vary in their intended use. A lot depends on the style(s) of music they write / play. I've seen some pretty wild preset configurations for the Axe FX, but I don't think there's any hard and fast consensus among hobby and semi-pro players.

    Quote from ColdFrixion


    In my opinion, the hobbyists and semi-pro's I've observed vary in their intended use. A lot depends on the style(s) of music they write / play. I've seen some pretty wild preset configurations for the Axe FX, but I don't think there's any hard and fast consensus among hobby and semi-pro players.


    I agree. However, it seems to me that there are many people who are very keen on such very advanced features but very few who actually use them. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to offend players who actually use this stuff but from guitarists/bands I know/have heard or seen most sounds and setups are rather simple.


    I wouldn't mind having more features or routing options though :D

    Quote from MtotheEikel


    I agree. However, it seems to me that there are many people who are very keen on such very advanced features but very few who actually use them. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to offend players who actually use this stuff but from guitarists/bands I know/have heard or seen most sounds and setups are rather simple.


    I'm not sure which features you're referring to specifically, but on forums I frequent there are any number of gigging musicians who use semi-complex / complex effects arrangements. I'm also familiar with quite a few whose requirements are very modest.

    I find the pro/semi-pro comments ridiculous. "Oh, you're not a Pro because you don't use a simple setup like mine." Seriously? No matter which forum I frequent, Cakewalk, Steinberg, Kemper, etc, there are always people who don't seem to like progress. Technology is all about progress, and improving on the previous iteration. Yes, I get that having a new Kemper every year is not good either. Got it! But if you've been paying attention to what I've said, then you'll know that's not what I'm asking for either.


    BTW, a couple of people mentioned RME, which is funny because they actually innovate and improve their products every few years. Go figure! ;)

    Quote from Jose7822

    - Support for multiple Sample a Rates.
    - More flexibility in its routing both from the hardware and software.
    - A smaller form factor, like that of the Helix.
    - Dual profile capabilities.
    - Customizable scribble strips.
    - A PC/Mac editor (not a huge deal, but it would be nice).


    Of those, I'd be interested in dual profiles and especially a computer editor. Additionally, I'd be interested in more extensive effects parameters. However, I'm satisfied with the sample rate, routing capabilities, and form factor.

    Quote from Jose7822

    I find the pro/semi-pro comments ridiculous. "Oh, you're not a Pro because you don't use a simple setup like mine." Seriously? No matter which forum I frequent, Cakewalk, Steinberg, Kemper, etc, there are always people who don't seem to like progress. Technology is all about progress, and improving on the previous iteration. Yes, I get that having a new Kemper every year is not good either. Got it! But if you've been paying attention to what I've said, then you'll know that's not what I'm asking for either.


    BTW, a couple of people mentioned RME, which is funny because they actually innovate and improve their products every few years. Go figure! ;)


    And at the same time, a RME product that has been discontinued continues to get regular updates whenever there's a change to whatever OS you're using, or if they think up a more stable firmware, or need to get rid of the (extremely rare) bug.


    And rock solid too.


    I'm happy with the base Kemper. I see shortcomings with it, sure, and I am coming up with my own workarounds to make the most of the Kemper's features. Frequently, this requires specialised external gear. But can I fault the Kemper for not being a synth? Not at all. I know that it's main strength is as a tone machine.


    So while a Kemper 2 would definitely be on my "get it now" list, the urge to upgrade for "additional features" beyond just a tone engine may be somewhat vitiated by the fact that the core sound is the same.


    I don't get the statement that "pros have simple setups", for the record. It's the pros that are always coming up with new and exciting sounds. That doesn't mean the Kemper has to be an all-in-one solution though. Specialised tools for specialised requirements.

    Quote from Dean_R

    you simply can't find similar tones in the Helix or AXE II, I'd be willing to bet that many of those who ended up with Helix or AXE II would have gotten a Kemper if they had a chance to hear those clips.


    Mhhh... possibly. But I think we should just accept as a fact that someone preferred the Fractal or L6 after listening to all the clips they have come across.
    The idea that if someone doesn't think like ourselves then they're missing something... is... well... you know :)



    Quote from sambrox

    I wouldn't be surprised if Kemper Amps aren't even paying attention to what the "competition" is doing.


    Mhhh... I don't see why this should happen (pretty sure it doesn't). I believe that Kemper would be extremely happy if most of the guitar players in the world bought a Profiler. This implies that they (users) have compared it to other devices, and made a choice: what competitors do does matter to Kemper. The fact that many users go L6 or Fractal or 11R (you name them) means that all of them have found they preferred what a competitor was doing... this is a clear money (and market share) loss for Kemper.




    Quote from Jose7822

    There will be a point where tone between the top devices of this kind will not matter at all, and all that will matter are features.


    This. Whit the exception that we are already there. Many swear that Fractal or L6 "nailed it" tonewise, and prefer a competitor to kemper: regardless what we users believe, many others decided the Profiler's tone was not enough for them to let their money go to Kemper.




    Quote from sambrox

    But they aren't YOUR amp! Having the opportunity to take the exact same sound on tour as you had on your recording shouldn't be taken lightly!


    But many, many Kemper users have never profiled an amp, many of them have never even owned an amp.
    The point many are missing IMO is that, while the Profiler was born for allowing people to take their sounds with them, it has soon developed in something else. Disregarding this "aberration" would be dangerous, from a marketing POV.




    Quote from MtotheEikel

    Most guitarists I know and see playing need a good amp tone and a few effects. Nothing too special or freaked out stuff...


    Rest assured there are a lot who like to play with musical toys. Healthy people who did not buy a Profiler because it couldn't do dual amps for example, or that are excited at the idea of being able to use 4 delays or to create a parallel path with a second cab... they are all over, really.
    Unless you are a pro, it's never a matter of what you need: it's always what you like most.




    Quote from ColdFrixion

    a lot of tone purists are interested in the most authentic amp tone possible.


    Yep, but this is not a market strategy. Proof is, Kemper have worked hard to address users' complains about what was missing in the Profiler, and still are. If they were just after pure tone, they just wouldn't care about improving usability or services. The fact that they do proves they are interesting in getting a high market share, beyond any slogans or "sonic religions".


    :)




    Quote from Jose7822

    I know what you mean about spending time tweaking and all of that. This is why I prefer the Kemper, cause I am able to find the tone I want much quicker with it than with the Helix


    Many complained that they did not want to get lost in the Profiler's thousands of rigs' rabbit hole, and chose othewise... Really, I don't think that 7000 rigs or 7000 cab IRs are much different...


    IOW, I think we should not analyse the universe of guitar players through ourselves. Hope this makes sense


    :)

    Quote from viabcroce

    Yep, but this is not a market strategy. Proof is, Kemper have worked hard to address users' complains about what was missing in the Profiler, and still are. If they were just after pure tone, they just wouldn't care about improving usability or services. The fact that they do proves they are interesting in getting a high market share, beyond any slogans or "sonic religions".


    I can't speak to what Kemper does. I was referring to my perception of the general interest of purists.

    No doubt the Profiler is perfect for many :)
    Since this thread is about a Profiler Mk II tho, we're talking about market perspectives and choices. You don't come out with a 1,8 kbuck device for just a niche... you need a much larger vision.


    :)

    Quote from viabcroce

    No doubt the Profiler is perfect for many :)
    Since this thread is about a Profiler Mk II tho, we're talking about market perspectives and choices. You don't come out with a 1,8 kbuck device for just a niche... you need a much larger vision.


    I know what the thread's about. I was responding to the comment below. I don't necessarily agree with the notion that the Kemper would not be competitive if profiling were its sole feature for the original reason given.


    "If profiling was the ONLY selling point that the Kemper had then it wouldn't be much competition to modelers."

    I know were you are coming from :) But the fact that a good share of digital players have chosen a different (often likewise-priced) device does boil down exactly to competitiveness IMO.
    My point is that there will of course always be musicians buying the Profiler for its tones. OTOH, whatever function and option you add that cover some field covered by the competitors (or even not covered by them) makes the Profiler desirable to a larger share of potential buyers.
    IOW, competitiveness is not a boolean value, it has to be measured in terms of market share. For example: "lack of dual amps is a deal-breaker for me". Kemper adds dual amps, sells more. By definition it has gained in competitiveness.
    Hope this makes sense :)


    Quote from Jose7822

    Perhaps. But who's to say, other than Kemper himself, that I am wrong?


    Exactly, that's why I finished with the line, "IMHO it's difficult to know for certain what CK meant, but that's my take for what it's worth. I don't see it in any way as hinting at a new model."


    I re-quoted CK to show that you quoted him out of context, and now you're doing the same to me.


    Quote from Jose7822

    You guys keep bringing up the tone. I think I've already explained that I definitely prefer the tone of the Kemper, that's why I have one for crying out loud, lol. I'm talking about features here. Keyword: FEATURES.


    :)


    I quoted CK to show that you quoted him out of context. I had to mention tone when "translating" what I thought he was saying, and in the first quote it's obvious that this is what he was referring to.


    When you say, "... you guys...", you must mean practically everyone in the thread, no? Here're some samples posted since you made this comment:


    Quote from Jimmyno


    But, my friend, I don't play with features. Usually I make music with tone.


    Quote from mdeeRocks


    Other than that - routing shmouting.. no other digital amp on the market is even close to what Kemper can do pure tone wise.


    Quote from ColdFrixion


    In my opinion, this isn't necessarily true. While I think extra features can definitely be a bonus, a lot of tone purists are interested in the most authentic amp tone possible.


    Quote from ColdFrixion

    In my opinion, excessive tweaking can lead to loss of perspective, and that's the one area I think Kemper has an advantage. It offers immediacy of great tone. That said, I do love and use the Axe FX's effects, but admittedly the amp modeling leaves me a bit cold.


    Quote from MtotheEikel


    Most guitarists I know and see playing need a good amp tone and a few effects. Nothing too special or freaked out stuff...


    Quote from MtotheEikel

    He also is a user who doesn't use it for its amp tones but as an FX unit.


    Quote from Jimmyno


    But, my friend, I don't play with features. Usually I make music with tone.


    Quote from nightlight

    But can I fault the Kemper for not being a synth? Not at all. I know that it's main strength is as a tone machine. So while a Kemper 2 would definitely be on my "get it now" list, the urge to upgrade for "additional features" beyond just a tone engine may be somewhat vitiated by the fact that the core sound is the same.


    Quote from pamplemousse

    My 2 cents, I'm a hobby player and it's all about the tone and ease of use. Less time tweaking more time playing


    Phew! A futile excersise, yes, but it brings home the point potently that what Kemper users have been after (until they bought the unit/s) is decent tone. There. I said it. This has obviously been frustrating for you, Jose. I wouldn't discount the possibility that most, if not all of us, totally get where you're coming from; it's just that we're responding by saying what's important to us, and in the vast majority of cases, it's tone. That's why we bought these things.


    Quote from Jose7822

    There will be a point where tone between the top devices of this kind will not matter at all, and all that will matter are features. And believe me, we are VERY close to that point (some people may even argue that we're already there). This (features) is where the Kemper is falling behind.


    It isn't falling behind. It started behind, 'cause the emphasis has always been on amp sounds. See that? I managed to avoid using the word, "tone". LOL In many senses, it's actually catching up, with the most-obvious exception being in terms of complex routing.


    "VERY close"? C'mon, mate. There's a reason hard-core valve heads' jaws drop when they've never come close to doing so before due to modellers. Actually, there're several reasons, with sound, response and feel being chief amongst them.



    Agreed for the most part. So... essentially, everyone's gotta catch up to the Helix. The scribble strips look awesome. A Kemper foot controller and / or integrated floor unit with strips would be killer for many users, wouldn't it?


    Smaller form factor? Mate, the Helix is HUGE! Place a Kemper toaster or rack next to one and it'll be dwarfed.


    Anyway, I get you. I think we all get you. Cheers, Jose. We all appreciate passion in these here parts, so keep it up, mate.

    Quote from viabcroce

    Mhhh... possibly. But I think we should just accept as a fact that someone preferred the Fractal or L6 after listening to all the clips they have come across.
    The idea that if someone doesn't think like ourselves then they're missing something... is... well... you know :)


    In some circumstances when there's scientific proof that something is more accurate with countless demonstrations, i.e Kemper demonstrating the accuracy when other manufacturers might not even show pictures of the amps they model, and if the objective is authentic realistic amp models, then yes, those not using the Kemper clearly aren't concerned with accuracy, which is fine as long as they're inspired to play as that's ultimately the intended purpose.


    It's similar to when someone says that a turntable is a musical instrument when most reasonable individuals know for a fact that it's not. And if line 6 or Fractal says the helix or AXE II are authentic amp modelers,a reasonable individual is well justified when asking them to prove by demonstrating; if they don't demonstrate, that doesn't make their amps bad, it just makes them non- authentic approximations. I see this as basic logic but I'm sure there's other ways to look it at. I'm not against advancement and I'm not against Kemper II.


    My humble opinion is that Kemper advancement shouldn't be overly concerned with what Fractal or Line 6 are doing when it comes to the pleathora of features but rather focus on what really made Kemper successful, unique and trendsetter, not just a follower on the footsteps of those who've been making guitar workstation with thousands of effects and parameters. That's been done over and over...Kemper is probably cooking up something completely different and brilliant, if I was to guess, not the same tired old chorus, flange ,reverb, audio interface midi controller blah ,bla blah

    Edited 2 times, last by Dean_R ().

    Quote from Dean_R

    In some circumstances when there's scientific proof that something is more accurate with countless demonstrations, i.e Kemper demonstrating the accuracy when other manufacturers might not even show pictures of the amps they model, and if the objective is authentic realistic amp models, then yes, those not using the Kemper clearly aren't concerned with accuracy, which is fine as long as they're inspired to play as that's ultimately the intended purpose.


    It's similar to when someone says that a turntable a musical instrument when most reasonable individuals know for a fact that it's not. And if line 6 or Fractal says the helix or AXE II are authentic amp modelers,a reasonable individual is well justified when asking them to prove by demonstrating; if they don't demonstrate, that doesn't make their amps bad, it just makes them non- authentic approximations.


    WelI, I've been following the Helix since it came out and have heard the opinions of many users.
    The devs stated they have most accurately nailed the amps they chose to model. There's a (sub)site (of L6's?) I can't recall ATM where you can exercise blind A\Bs between the real amps and their models. You'll find it with some clips in the main Helix thread on TGP.
    But what I do believe is we are digressing. We should just be talking about people preferring a certain tone rather than a different one: something different than pursuing faithfulness. Exactly like many prefer a non-linear cab to an FRFR, a DXR to a CLR.
    The Profiler is not giving us the amp's tone: it's giving us the tone of an amp arbitrarily-tweaked through a cab as heard by an arbitrarily-placed (and arbitrarily-tweaked) arbitrary mic.
    OTOH, I've heard so variously-sounding (real) Marshalls that I can't for the sake of me say which one was "the original one". So it's quite arbitrary to state that profiles are by principle more faithful to the original than models: what amp have you profiled? And what amp have you modelled? There can certainly be more differences between two profiles of the same amp than between a well-made model of an am and the amp itself. Not to mention tonestack and controls: on a high-level modeller everything responds like the original, on the Profiler only the untweaked profile sounds like the original rig.


    Using your metaphor, we are (or we should be) basically discussing about how people like to use a turntable. Ultimately, it's what you like best that most matters, and creates market demand :)

    Quote from Dean_R

    My humble opinion is that Kemper advancement shouldn't be overly concerned with what Fractal or Line 6 are doing when it comes to the pleathora of features but rather focus on what really made Kemper successful, unique and trendsetter, not just a follower on the footsteps of those who've been making guitar workstation with thousands of effects and parameters. That's been done over and over...Kemper is probably cooking up something completely different and brilliant, if I was to guess, not the same tired old chorus, flange ,reverb, audio interface midi controller blah ,bla blah


    Yeah, IIRC the GSP2101, which was a blend of 12AX7 and digital technology, already had routing complex enough to have many scratching their heads. That was in what, the mid '90s?


    Companies will always devise new, ever-more complex routing schemes. The question for me is the utility of 'em. There's an inversely-proportional relationship between their sophistication and the number of end users who're both willing and able to take full advantage of them.

    Quote from viabcroce

    I know were you are coming from :) But the fact that a good share of digital players have chosen a different (often likewise-priced) device does boil down exactly to competitiveness IMO.


    Which device are you referring to and on what basis did you come to the conclusion that it was "chosen" over the Kemper?


    Quote from viabcroce

    My point is that there will of course always be musicians buying the Profiler for its tones. OTOH, whatever function and option you add that cover some field covered by the competitors (or even not covered by them) makes the Profiler desirable to a larger share of potential buyers.


    Sure, but that's independent of whether the KPA can or can't compete without added features. That's the assertion I was rebutting.

    Quote from viabcroce

    WelI, I've been following the Helix since it came out and have heard the opinions of many users. The devs stated they have most accurately nailed the amps they chose to model.


    Well, what do you expect? Developers would never say something like that unless it were true, you know.



    Quote from viabcroce

    OTOH, I've heard so variously-sounding (real) Marshalls that I can't for the sake of me say which one was "the original one". So it's quite arbitrary to state that profiles are by principle more faithful to the original than models: what amp have you profiled? And what amp have you modelled? There can certainly be more differences between two profiles of the same amp than between a well-made model of an am and the amp itself. Not to mention tonestack and controls: on a high-level modeller everything responds like the original, on the Profiler only the untweaked profile sounds like the original rig.


    Unlike modelers, one assurance that the KPA is accurate would be the ability to perform a direct A/B comparison after profiling. Modelers don't allow one to qualify their results. So, while a model may, in fact, be more or less accurate, there's a certain amount of faith one has to couple with a belief in their accuracy. In my opinion, that difference alone puts the KPA in a class all its own and will continue to keep it competitive despite its comparative lack of features.