Profiling with more than 1 mic?

Quote from PhilUK84

It could be good to use two mics, perhaps you could capture the room, or would it mess up the profile of there was an element of reverb in it?

the reverb of the room is already influencing the profile, in the sense that it shapes it's tone.
Add one of the internal reverbs (I like to use the Room Reverbs for this), give it a little bit of predelay and mix it in low. I mostly aim for that spot were you hear a bit of reverb after a staccato note, but not all the time when you're playing - but if you switch the reverb off, a little something is missing.
Many of the factory rigs have a reverb setting like this.

Quote from b_ryan

Probably not. But what I would like though is a way to be able to combine the two mics AFTER the profiling. That way you are not stuck with one sound. Oh...I need more SM57 than the Sennheiser mic. You cannot do that now if you use a mixer pre Kemper.

I guess currently, there are two "solutions":
1. Wait for a KPA2 and hope, it's able to do what you like. However, I don't think it will come anytime soon.
2. Buy another Kemper.

Quote from b_ryan

Of course it's a different tech they use to make their products. I'm no tech wizz but I'm pretty sure that we in the year 2015 are able to something like that. We send people in space. This CAN be done as well.

I totally agree with you that it CAN be done. But the ability of it to be able to be done reaches the limitation of the DSP on board the Kemper.

When you buy a phone or a computer or a tablet, you expect it to work for you for today, for tomorrow, and for the next year or two, at least. For some people, even longer.

When you buy a refrigerator that has a built in computer that decides if it crushes your ice or provides it whole, that CPU is probably one similar to a computer that came out in 1995, probably not much more powerful than an original Pentium. Maybe even slower.

People tinker around with boards called Arduinos that are very low-powered. They have a hard time powering an array of LEDs because they're low powered. But why is there such a community of people that love them? Because you design a product based on it's needs. A computer has long-term needs that may drastically change. A refrigerator won't. An alarm clock won't. The Kemper fits into that same realm - it does what it does, and it does it very well. When it came out 5 years ago or so (correct me if I'm wrong, but it's been a while), the concept of multiple amps was on the market, but only Line 6 had done it. Kemper wasn't going to be a copycat, and they still aren't to this day. A DSP planned 5 years ago (probably even earlier than that) had more than ample power to do it's job - profile great amps and allow users across the world to play through them.

Now, it's 2015. I agree that an update is in order. But the Kemper team is a small one. Don't expect this functionality to come out of a Kemper anytime soon. Line 6 was able to do it because they have the models of each amp (and a limited set) and the models of the microphones and IRs. With the Kemper, you can throw a lot of different things at it that are all very, very different, and the algorithm around the profiling functionality is very, very different than modeling technology. With modeling tech, developers can specify everything in code. With a Kemper, you have these data files (profiles) that may all read very differently, and, their output may introduce phasing issues. It's something that the Kemper is not made to do.

I had an X3 Live for years. I think 7 or 8 years, to be exact. I loved what I could do with dual amps. But, honestly, once I found some really great profiles, I realized the "dual amps" setup was just a band-aid. I don't miss the sound at all. I can get even better sounds out of the Kemper. If you're finding you can't find the exact sound you want, do some more searching - buy some great rigs from some great rig resellers. If you're still not happy with what you can get out of it and your only desired sound is dual amps, then you might want to consider the Helix when it comes out.

The DSP is just not powerful enough. But it's powerful enough for what the Kemper natively does, and it does it very, very well. But, if it's not for you, and you want something you can upgrade every year or two, then this is not the device for you.

Not sure the DSP isn't powerful enough. All I know is that CK said a while ago that there was ample CPU headroom in the original design so as to allow for a multitude of functionality updates. We can guess, but I don't think anyone here knows what proportion of said CPU grunt is chewed up by the rig profiles themselves, or how much they use relative to the DSP FX.

Could the sacrificing of all stomps, delay and 'verb for a 2nd parallel rig work? Would that forfeiting of said FX even be necessary? I honestly haven't heard any hint as to just how CPU-intensive the amp-block processing is.

Has something been mentioned that I might've missed?

Quote from DonPetersen

the reverb of the room is already influencing the profile, in the sense that it shapes it's tone. Add one of the internal reverbs (I like to use the Room Reverbs for this), give it a little bit of predelay and mix it in low. I mostly aim for that spot were you hear a bit of reverb after a staccato note, but not all the time when you're playing - but if you switch the reverb of a little something is missing.Many of the factory rigs have a reverb setting like this.

Spot on, Don. That's how I've always set these things, even for synths and in mixing.

Phil, Don's suggestion is sound(!) audio-engineering practice, IMHO.

Quote from DonPetersen

[OT]how do you like Pure Cabinet, then? [/OT]

Well, as you can imagine, Don, I thought all my Christmases had come at once when I heard about PC. Unfortunately my short stint auditioning it was abruptly curtailed by a freeze of the amp and output volumes at full tilt. I can't remember the details right now, but I posted about it and reverted to using the last non-beta FW. From the little fiddling I managed to do, I can confirm that, as you'd know, phase-cancellation is indeed reduced. I can't say I was 100% satisfied with the results, but I feel it would be unfair to make a definitive judgement based upon so little exposure to the feature.

I remember that as one approached a setting of 10, probably from 8.5 upwards, a "new" high-end crunch / fizz began to creep in which offered an unexpected tonal option. I speculated in another thread that perhaps some of the high frequencies were experiencing the effect of a 360 degree roll-around by whatever the process of cancellation-compensation is, by the time one approached those higher settings, but obviously(!) I've absolutely no idea what I'm talking about!

Bottom line: Yes, your question is timely; I'm sure I'll be putting the feature to good use, mate!

Quote from b_ryan

What CAN be done is mixing to already profiled amps together like Boss and Line6. That does not demand that much more juice.

Profiling is proprietary to Kemper - noone had ever done it before.
The companies you mention had modeling, not profiling.

But it can indeed be done and has already been done by quite a few people: all you need is a second Profiler.

Testing, implementing and double the processing. Probably meaning almost double the price, too.

Quote from DonPetersen

But it can indeed be done and has already been done by quite a few people: all you need is a second Profiler.

How do they do it? Have an active profile open, profile a new amp and it kinda mixes them?

Quote from PhilUK84

How do they do it? Have an active profile open, profile a new amp and it kinda mixes them?

no, much simpler - they simply use two Profilers in parallel.

So how do they then merge the two profiles to create one tone?

I might be being really stupid here.

There is no merging. He's talking about using two separate Kempers live to output two separate rigs.

I'm referring to this:

Quote

But what I would like though is a way to be able to combine the two mics AFTER the profiling. That way you are not stuck with one sound. Oh...I need more SM57 than the Sennheiser mic. You cannot do that now if you use a mixer pre Kemper.

I think he was referring to using multiple microphones to merge multiple microphone positions into one profile, like the Helix, Axe FX can do. Buying two profilers will just achieve a stereo sound live of multiple profiles. We want to combine the profiles so that we don't need to buy multiple units, and so that we don't have to necessarily double track. (I think)

And if not, this is what I'd like.

As already stated, it isn't possible. Maybe it'll be in a KPA II, if such a thing ever sees the light of day.

It's something I can do by recording a dry signal, reamping to another track and keeping both wet tracks in the same position, i.e up the centre. But needing another Kemper to do this live seems a bit much.

If it's really not possible to do this because of hardware, it might be a bit of an oversight. I am very much attracted to the tonal possibilities something like this can give me.

It is really REALLY not possible to do this with one KPA mk I.
I think your hardware comment is a bit unfair. Think of it like this : the common acceptance around these parts is that Line 6 hasn't come close to the tube-like intricacies and nuances that the Kemper does so well. It might take the extra horsepower to get to that level. What would you rather have, two inferior emulations you can mix together or one spot on accurate simulation?

If you mean the Helix - It's been played by a handful of people, no one knows yet? Whatever they say, It's conjecture. None of the other units are comparable, no.

I accept that it may not be able to be done, but it's still something that a lot of people would like, and seeing the Axe and Helix with it doesn't help. Especially if the official line is that there will be no hardware update for a long time yet the hardware is capable of lots of upgrades for a long time, but not the one, awesome feature that all the other units have. It's possible there will be no Kemper 2 and that we'll never have it.

It's disappointing, what else can I say? But for recording, I can get around it with some trickery.

It's true. There may never be a Kemper 2.0.

Personally, though, after being in the Line 6 world for years, having sub-par models, poor sounds, no longer supported devices, lack of updates, etc... I'm happy I have a Kemper that I can get a great sound out of without needing to mix two poor tones to create a decent tone, firmware that's solid and stable (I'm talking about release versions, not beta versions, because betas are simply that - pre-release veresions), relatively frequent updates with new features and functionality and fixes, and great support from the owner himself here on the forums. Oh! And I won't feel anxiety about my old device when a new one comes out, because that's not something I need to worry about.

I stand true to my original statement - if you find the right profile out there, you won't need to mix individual amps (unless your sound is some weird mix of 50% Roland JC-120 and 50% Randall Satan). There's so many great options out there that it's not hard. But if you really want multiple amps out of one unit, the Kemper's not the device for you.