Kemper vs. AX8 vs. Helix vs. BIAS Head - BLIND TEST!

Quote from Monkey_Man

I've never seen any sort of acknowledgement by anyone on the K-Team™ or CK of this speculation, which isn't surprising IMHO.

I think the K-team has actually said directly that this is not true

Really? OK, so I read that as their saying, "Guess again, bozo". LOL

Quote from Monkey_Man

....

Unless I'm mistaken, Cliff either came up with the idea or at least spoke of it.

That's also my understanding. He also claimed that "Tone Match", his name for EQ matching,, is the same as profiling and many who appear in the picture posted by Sinmix in post #29 believed that also to be true. LOL

Quote from Monkey_Man

There was talk for years about there being, I think, 7 baseline algorithms into which the profiling process fed the data it collected, Nikos. Templates, if you like. The most-appropriate of the 7 would be chosen based upon the behaviours / characteristics of the amp being Profiled.

I've never seen any sort of acknowledgement by anyone on the K-Team™ or CK of this speculation, which isn't surprising IMHO. Even if it's not the case, to say what it isn't is simply revealing one more thing that it cannot be, and if you're keeping a secret...

Unless I'm mistaken, Cliff either came up with the idea or at least spoke of it.

I think it's less than seven. One Clean and a few Distortion, and they are called "Models." CK found out that the solution he was looking for wasn't to build an amp model from the ground up, but identify the most oft-used models and identify key bottlenecks that were better determined by real-time feedback. Especially since some things can't be modeled because the characteristics different from amp to amp (i.e. cabinet wood density) and run to run of various models over years (differing components) and even Fractal's owner talked about the problem of modeling a schematic having the difficulty of component layout causing differences in tone as they interact with each other by proximity.

CK figured a real-time probing approach would get at those underlying difficulties, and the end result is... It worked.

Quote from sinmix

Some people belive in God, some people belive that Kemper and profiled Amp + miced cab sounds spot on, some people belive that Kemper works like many ampsims, and profiling process consists of two parts: 1 - programing build in "Ampsim" and created cab IR. That's why world is Interesting

I think it's a bit over-the-top to compare such phenomena to a diety. Sort of dilutes the point.

Better terms would be: Groupism, Buyer's Stockholm Syndrome, Post-Purchase Rationalization, or simply an Opinion.

The reason there are so many differing "beliefs" in what they are hearing is that:

1) The health of their hearing differs
2) The interpretation of the auditory sense by each person's brain differs
3) The rooms, speakers, setup, etc differs
4) In-the-mix has a much lower bar for emulation realism.

It's not that someone is wrong or right or that people in this field are stupid or fanatical.

They have their own real reasons for such preferences. Vive la différence!

I can understand someone new to amp modeling not understanding that EQ match (used by Bias and AXE Fx) is the previous century technology but how it's even possible to have someone or many believe that it's the same as Profiling shows how gullible (to put mildly) consumers can be when a blanket is put over their heads by clever marketing, again I refer you to post number 29 to see how that's even possible.

EQ Matching is a great idea and best used IF you don't have the right guitar. It's gets you close.

But compared to having the correct amp emulation and correct guitar, it's quite second rate.

And laughable to even suggest EQ matching is close to Profiling. That's like comparing a sketch of the Eiffel Tower to the real thing.

Asking for proof can not be a bad thing.At least not in my world.In basic school as a child I had great teachers who learned us not only maths and some languages but also stories like the "tale of the proper gander"..

Again..I dont care why the profiler sounds so great.If it is just three "models" and the rest is whatever trick I dont care.But in a world of crazy claims,murderous competition in allkind of buisness and dangerous conspiracy theories I would at least expect some simple proof when it comes to so simple questions like "how works my music instrument"..

If this is asked to much I dont know what to say.

Quote from sinmix

Many of words guys, so lets start from begining without negative emotions etc.. let's talk like men

3 Samples what you think about guitar sounds? good, shitty? fit in the mix not fit in the mix, no matter how they sound sinmix is dick

http://www.brickwall.pl/newcomp/


Stay Metal!

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The guitar sounds here are all 'appropriate for the music/genre', I'd say.
Good?/Shitty?Fitting in the mix? >> This is all about decisions in the mixing process anyway. No. 3 seems to have a hair more presence to me but this could really be only my perception.
What do you want to prove?

@sinmix

Same question as Ingolf..what do you want to proove;That super high gain amps can and will sound the same when you put a mic in front of the same cab;;Okay you did it friend..but I already knew this since I started recording 20 years ago with dual rectos,modded marshalls and 5150s..

Sorry to say that but this prooves (yet) absolutely NOTHING..I recorded hundreds songs in many,many different music styles and heavy metal in all its kinds with the gain-control on 11 was defnitly NOT the right music for "hearing nuances" and "small details"..specially not when using the same cab.I can make my Steavens-EL34 monster "Poundcake" very easy sound like my Dual Recto when in high gain mode..specially when I use my beloved cab (vintage 4x12 orange with 25W blackbacks)

I have doubts if your "theory" is right because I recorded many,many popmusic style of music while using mostly EL84 kind of amps in slightly overdriven/medium drive-"sweetness" (mostly Vox ACs,Matchless & Peavey classic) and again I could make them all sound "very,very similiar" while I could often only seperate them soundwise in the monitors when I played them myself.

Are you a lover of these sound;If yes..you know what I want to say..if not I would recommend you try this because this is where the "juice"and all the "sweetness" is when it comes to guitar-amp sounds.

As long as the Kemper is able to catch these details not only in sound but more so in matters of "feel" I honestly dont care how it can do this but in my opinion this would be very difficult with just "one vox model" or "EL84-model" or whatever..if I am wrong and you are right..hail the King (CK) because he is really a genius who can do wonders with just 4-5 amp models and some serious algo-genius..

Slightly off topic, but I'm also a member of another forum where a lot of peeps have multiple tube amp heads and throw a lot of dislike at digital units such as the Kemper. But as someone who can't afford anything past having my Kemper, I'm sure glad that I can have all their tube amps in one box available to me. I might not get 100% close to their sound, but if I can get 90% plus, I'm ecstatic. Not to mention, most won't be able to tell in a mix anyway and also the setup time to record. Just random 2 cent's, sorry for taking a detour in the thread.

@apr13st

Micing our precious tube amps/cabs means loosing a lot more than just 10% in most cases on stage or in the studio..

This is just an issue most of us guitar players wont talk about.How good does the engineers in the studio,live sound guys etc catch our precious amp/cab sound with the mics they often (live)just hang down from above with a 5 min (in the best case) soundcheck;How much experience has the sound guy in the medium class studio most of us can afford doing a demo/first album with our band;For gigs.. we dont even know exactly because..well..we must stay on stage and play..we just dont know how we sound..

After the soundcheck and after the gig we ask a dozen friends and hear a dozen different things from "you sounded great" to "I did not even hear you"..

This is the truth,no;

In reality we have "our beloved sound" only when we stay in the rehearsal room playing with our bands or paying a ton of money for someone to record it as we really,really like it to sound..

In reality the chance to sound closer to our beloved tube amp sound the profiler gives us at least as much % of possibility than in most other cases (like micing our amps/cabs for most gigs).

Plus..with the kpa I can carry my stuff all alone,can put it into the car all alone,have a small footprint on stage,all the FX I need etc..leave alone the "level vs sound quality"-issue with most tube amps on stage.

In reality we have to take all these into account and then we will have to admit that the profiler till yet is the "solution" most of us have been waiting for.Specially in regards of "sound" for gigs and studio.

@sinmix

I dont know exactly if you realize that your style of music has a lot to do how you "hear" things..dont take this as a personal attack I just state the obvious.

I told you already that (and this is a very personal opinion which could be wrong) comparing only high gain sounds I would "go nuts" because indeed I have the feeling that "all sound the same" after hearing just a few of the typical high gain amps.It is just "to much gain" for my ears after a some time.

What do I want to say;Maybe that you must respect that many guitar players out there wont "stay metal" but also pop.rock or blues or whatever..and in my ears the profiler does catch very well the fine details and differences of "similiar amps" like the el84 type of amps I told you above.

For this reason I have my doubts tha a single "Vox model" or "el84 model" or whatever could do this.

This thread the way I see it was about Ola having fun!! Nothing more, nothing less , nothing scientific or nothing that can be used to conclude that KPA profiles don't sound like the real amps because OLa didn't try to do that!

So @sinmix you keep saying the the Kemper profiles don't sound the same like the amps they profile. Are you even trying to make your profiles sound exactly like the amp? How hard did you try to make them sound the same or you when did you decide that it can't be done? If you're not trying to making them sound the same for whatever reason you have, so what!! You still get very good sounding profiles! I just can't agree with you that the Profiler can't be made to sound exactly (for all intended purposes and uses) like the recorded tube amp! With Direct profiles also, into the same Cab, it also sounds the same and I've done that and not only watched others do it.

There's really nothing to argue about here, the KPA is very versatile and can be used by different players for different things and it simply does that giving the most authentic and realistic amp tones for those interested in accuracy and realism, even those who are interested in New tones or what they perceive or hear to be better than how the amps sound. That's why some users, including me, buy commercial profiles because they sound so fucking (using your term) realistic, including your profiles, it's that simple! They don't sound like crap as Bias and the rest! Maybe someone like you can turn crap into gold but the average user doesn't want to spend hours and days tweaking or shooting IRs.

Not only commercial profiles are great, Just yesterday or the day before someone profiled their Friedman steve steven and it was a free profile. Check it out, it does sound just like the Steve Steven demonstrated by Steve Steven himself on you tube (sorry if I'm misspelling the name). So I should go and compare using a spectrum analyser and a million dollar speaker system to make sure that it's identical! Are the AXE FX II or Bias or Helix capable and will the average person or a professional be able to do that using these other tools you keep talking about. The answer is most definitely No! Not even close to how Kemper does it.