Everyone I know pretty much uses no more than three typical settings for their amps.
Clean, overdrive, solo.
Would it be a nice feature to be able to model every possible setting on an amp with just one profile. Sure. My thought would be, most people would still navigate to the 2-3 typical settings.
Even if everyone only used 3 settings, they wouldn't all be the same 3.
Everyone I know pretty much uses no more than three typical settings for their amps.
Clean, overdrive, solo.
Would it be a nice feature to be able to model every possible setting on an amp with just one profile. Sure. My thought would be, most people would still navigate to the 2-3 typical settings.
yep. Though, Depending on the person, in addition to clean, they might also have a pushed clean, or something like that.
Even if everyone only used 3 settings, they wouldn't all be the same 3.
Would be if they profiled the amp themselves. And most good profile sets out there have much more than 2 to 3. And, in reality the only place that the onboard tweaks of the KPA can't get any of those profiles to a place for the vast majority of people are when it's one of the few amps with a really interactive eq stack. Most amps, EQ is fairly straight forward.
You seem hell-bent on bashing the KPA over this point for some reason. Just don't get it.
Would be if they profiled the amp themselves. And most good profile sets out there have much more than 2 to 3. And, in reality the only place that the onboard tweaks of the KPA can't get any of those profiles to a place for the vast majority of people are when it's one of the few amps with a really interactive eq stack. Most amps, EQ is fairly straight forward.
The discussion is about opinions regarding the criteria modelers need to fulfill in order to be a threat to amp manufacturers. While I think profiling amps is great, needing your own amp(s) to do it won't hurt amp sales, in my opinion. Personally, I don't have a problem with tweaking profiles using the on-board controls. I've had great results doing it, but a lot of purists aren't like me from what I've seen. I've heard from amp purists who are critical of any modeler whose controls don't react like the amps they're based on.
Either way, I don't personally believe any of the modelers, including the KPA, will sway a majority of amp purists. While I love the Kemper and Axe FX II, from my perspective neither one appears to have put a dent in the tube amp market.
I've already laid out the criteria I personally believe modelers will need to fulfill in order to be a threat to amp manufacturers.
Use morph to use one profile but 2 gain settings. Use performance to have 5 settings (or 3, if you wish) with one profile. In RM call them Clean - Overdrive - Solo. For Solo you could then not only add gain, but use Stomps like Boost or TubeScreamer.
Very flexible and readily available right now.
That's what I do, keeping it simple. I have a performance setup for each instrument I use frequently.
I'm a Chemical/Materials engineer by training, but I had a little exposure to transfer functions in my Process Control class 25 years ago. Haven't use a differential equation or LaPlace transform since
. But I remember enough to be curious about how the propagation of errors affect a multicomponent Lumped Element model compared to an H(x) model. Intuitively, it seems like they could wind up making a mess. Care to comment?
Interesting discussion.
If you remember your circuits class (or fluid flow for ME), in order to computationally handle huge circuits, you take portions of the circuit and turn the lumped model into a single transformation function which is then used in the high level analyzing of the larger circuit.
This is easier for engineering students as well as for DSP chips 
Another issue with the lumped model is that it is too simple in real life.
Example: In schematics, the wires between lumped elements (resistors, inductors, transistors, etc), are considered to have no resistance, no capacitance, no inductance, and pick up no noise.
In real circuits, especially at higher frequencies, none of the above is true. The traces start looking like transmission lines ..... complete with varying impedance over frequency ranges and reflection waves.
While one can model this mess one wire at a time, it is sure a crap load easier for lazy engineers like myself to simply measure the impulse response of the entire system..... and who cares what little pieces got you there?
Reading through CK's interview, it looks like he has multiple H(x) functions in his system. He has also put variables in the functions which are available for tweaking outside of the measurement (ie we can control the gain, eq, amp parameters, etc).
It is my estimation that CK has forgotten more about signal and system processing than I will ever know.
The discussion is about opinions regarding the criteria modelers need to fulfill in order to be a threat to amp manufacturers. While I think profiling amps is great, needing your own amp(s) to do it won't hurt amp sales, in my opinion. Personally, I don't have a problem with tweaking profiles using the on-board controls. I've had great results doing it, but a lot of purists aren't like me from what I've seen. I've heard from amp purists who are critical of any modeler whose controls don't react like the amps they're based on.
Either way, I don't personally believe any of the modelers, including the KPA, will sway a majority of amp purists. While I love the Kemper and Axe FX II, from my perspective neither one appears to have put a dent in the tube amp market.
I've already laid out the criteria I personally believe modelers will need to fulfill in order to be a threat to amp manufacturers.
According to the guys from Line 6, approximately 80% of guitar players are still running through "traditional" amps. Then you look at the two biggest names in guitars-Fender and Gibson: Their current flagship models are still designs that date back to the early/mid fifties. What this tells us is that, in general, guitar players are an extremely conservative and traditional bunch, and quite resistant to change.
As I see it, the only thing that will ever "endanger" tube amps (other than the eventual cessation of tube manufacturing in the two remaining countries that still use them in their technology) would be for tens/hundreds of thousands of people to change their long-standing mindset.
According to the guys from Line 6, approximately 80% of guitar players are still running through "traditional" amps. Then you look at the two biggest names in guitars-Fender and Gibson: Their current flagship models are still designs that date back to the early/mid fifties. What this tells us is that, in general, guitar players are an extremely conservative and traditional bunch, and quite resistant to change.
As I see it, the only thing that will ever "endanger" tube amps (other than the eventual cessation of tube manufacturing in the two remaining countries that still use them in their technology) would be for tens/hundreds of thousands of people to change their long-standing mindset.
Based on what I've read from a number of users who prefer tube amps on The Gear Page and elsewhere, it seems like many of them are open to the idea of modeling, some have dabbled in it, while others have actually given it a decent shot. From what I could gather, it seems like a lot of them ultimately ended up going back to real amps because, overall, they just didn't think modeling cut the mustard sonically. That and the feel seemed off. However, I'm willing to bet if you tested them in a blind A/B using a profile of their amp alongside the actual amp, most would fail miserably. No question.
Yeah, just like Chappers.
Yeah, just like Chappers.
Yep.
When you know which is which, it's a lot easier to fall prey to the placebo effect, in my opinion. If you ask me, sonic authenticity used to be a deal years ago. These days? I think the KPA has breached the threshold of perceptibility, generally speaking. I mean, there may be issues, but sonic authenticity isn't really one of them anymore, in my opinion.
I think the KPA has breached the threshold of perceptibility, generally speaking. I mean, there may be issues, but sonic authenticity isn't really one of them anymore, in my opinion.
Agreed, and in the Kemper's case, neither is playability.
Use morph to use one profile but 2 gain settings. Use performance to have 5 settings (or 3, if you wish) with one profile. In RM call them Clean - Overdrive - Solo. For Solo you could then not only add gain, but use Stomps like Boost or TubeScreamer.
Very flexible and readily available right now.
I still need to dive into the performance feature of the Kemper. To date I've quickly turned into a profile buying junkie!
As I see it, the only thing that will ever "endanger" tube amps (other than the eventual cessation of tube manufacturing in the two remaining countries that still use them in their technology) would be for tens/hundreds of thousands of people to change their long-standing mindset.
Um, those 2 countries don't still use tubes in their technology. Pretty much audiophile and music industries are the only thing they are producing tubes for.
Agreed, and in the Kemper's case, neither is playability.
Interesting that till yet no one here in this discussion sees that the tube amp is a big part of the rocknroll myth.Actually this is the main reason why no digital tool will replace it yet..
It is the "last line of defence" against the 9.00-17.00 reality.The last piece of rocknroll in the lives of millions with a beloved old Hendrix/Rolling Stones T-shirt in their wardrobe the wife wants so desperatly to throw in the garbarge since years and the daughter comments it like "dad..this is embarassing"...
The wood,metal,hot tubes,huge knobs...it is loud,difficult to tame..do I need to say more;
Plastic,computers,programmes,"modelling 3D-adventures"...all things most do in their office day in day out.When these guys come home they have to care for their family,doing homework with their children etc..and afterwards late in the evening they have maybe 1-2 hours for themselves before they go to bed and the next "Grounddog day" next morning.
This last fortress of manhood,of rocknroll and "wild lifestyle" (yes..the tube amp) will stay on top for a long time to come.The KPA (or any other modeler) is here to stay in music because it is a wonderfull tool for making the lives of many,many,many musicians easier.It sounds great and can do "everything" on stage and in the studio but this is not the issue.We talk about something different and some million guys of several post 50s rock/pop-eras who dont care about if the xyz-amp/tool can soundwise (not to mention "routingwise" or "UI-wise")..do this or that.They just want to feel good.This is not to difficult to understand..
Display MoreInteresting that till yet no one here in this discussion sees that the tube amp is a big part of the rocknroll myth.Actually this is the main reason why no digital tool will replace it yet..
It is the "last line of defence" against the 9.00-17.00 reality.The last piece of rocknroll in the lives of millions with a beloved old Hendrix/Rolling Stones T-shirt in their wardrobe the wife wants so desperatly to throw in the garbarge since years and the daughter comments it like "dad..this is embarassing"...
The wood,metal,hot tubes,huge knobs...it is loud,difficult to tame..do I need to say more;
Plastic,computers,programmes,"modelling 3D-adventures"...all things most do in their office day in day out.When these guys come home they have to care for their family,doing homework with their children etc..and afterwards late in the evening they have maybe 1-2 hours for themselves before they go to bed and the next "Grounddog day" next morning.
This last fortress of manhood,of rocknroll and "wild lifestyle" (yes..the tube amp) will stay on top for a long time to come.The KPA (or any other modeler) is here to stay in music because it is a wonderfull tool for making the lives of many,many,many musicians easier.It sounds great and can do "everything" on stage and in the studio but this is not the issue.We talk about something different and some million guys of several post 50s rock/pop-eras who dont care about if the xyz-amp/tool can soundwise (not to mention "routingwise" or "UI-wise")..do this or that.They just want to feel good.This is not to difficult to understand..
Ok, so you are basically like the generic player that buys and plays gear that your heros buyed and played. This has already been addressed, but its not as important to anyone under 40. Keep in mind, back in the 50's - 70's and into the early 80's, there was not much choice in gear. That is why all played a strat or les paul, or played through a vox or fender or marshall. That's all they had for the most part. Why did so many try to get away from all the old gear? Because obviously, much was lacking. We tried everything, pedals, rack gear, pickups, different woods, on and on, a constant quest because there was ALWAYS something missing. Feedback, fragile heavy amps and cabs, tone changing with the weather, some days you sound great, some days your tube head is wanking out like a moody ex girlfriend. The frustrations of recording, making isolation cabs, isolation rooms, on and on... We gladly tried all the latest newest things to hopefully get that missing whatever or make our studio 'sound' the same live, but always were missing some kind a parameter, or lacking one more connection, or had to buy one more cable, or one more speaker, or one more pedal, or some new strings, or whatever... So finally, after all this time, we have a few items that come so damn close the diff is almost stupid to cry about considering ALLLL the problems they solve. I have some sweet high end heads, and I can play them next to the Kemper and I don't feel I am missing a thing. No, my ears are not messed up. Yes, I can tell all the nuances between various guitars and various amps in various rooms, no there isn't anything missing. You can get a lot out of what Nikos is saying here. I know many many many people who just go buy what they are shown is the thing to buy. "Oh, I need a Les Paul and a Marshall" "Oh, everyone is playing a strat and a Fender amp" "Ibanez! That is what everyone plays, so that is the best.." Its like people who go into any kind of digital media for a profession and they immediately go out and by a MAC. People are easily led. Few branch out on their own. Everyone use yourself as an example, put yourself in a room of 1000 players, would you stand out? Not by your sound, but just what you are and what you have. 90% or higher would not, You are like everyone else. Most buy because that is what everyone else buys, not because they took the time to go beyond. Even builders are mostly clones of others, so many 'custom' guitar builders building strat copies with a little twist on the peghead and have the balls to call it their own. Or a custom tube amp builder that is basically a ripoff of another design with just an xtra gain stage and suddenly it is a revelation. Most players sound the same no matter what they play through. 99% of all people going to see bands have no idea between a SLO and and a cheapo Peavey. Perfect sounds are in the studio. Live? Who could tell really between an Eventide or a foot pedal in an open outside stage? People walking all over the place messing up the sound reflections? Sometimes the nitpicking gets absolutely silly. Since 1983, I have played through pretty much everything there is, and have no love lost if tubes went away tomorrow. I can play well enough to make anything sound good. Most kids today? If they had the opportunity to try out everything? Wouldn't go for tube first. As I look through the ads of all the online sellers, they push all the cheapo China made crap tube amps and that is the reason for the big sales besides the endorsers who need the money. There has been a lot of talk on this topic now, but really, time will show the future. The big turn back to simple was because rack gear got too complex and couldn't get to the next level. How about working on the SOUND instead of giving me more features? All those effects racks with FX made for studio (everything) not really guitar. Who needs chirps and super ducks and explosions? Cool for keyboard, not so much for guitar. How many of us sat in front of their new $1000 toy, sat through and played the 300 parameters and go "Christ... what did I do?!? again?!?!" Or buy a 'tube preamp' and then imagine a designer laughing because they probably didn't even have the tubes in the chain, they jut made them glow, cause the sound sucked! How many times have players sold everything, except 1 guitar and tube combo, loved life being free... for 2 months.... Then started thumbing through the new musicians friend "Hmmmm... If I get that and that and just use 2 cables, I am still pure!" and "Ok, so if I get these other two pedals, I am just gonna have to go ahead and get a board to mount them on, and hell, I am gonna need that little power supply... can I fit this reverb rack under that somehow?! If it was just 1" taller...." Back in hell! I love the kemper. Thank you Kemper for saving my soul. haha..
I think we'll find with the current selection of 'modellers' being so competent, and only likely to get better, the next generations of players will go for them over traditional amps for at least home practice. I can't imagine my 5 year-old wanting a real amp when he's 20 and if I were to recommend to any parent an amp for their child learning to play, it'd be some line 6, Yamaha or Roland offering.
@Nemo13
a bit of formatting would greatly improve the readability of your post
If I was getting paid to write an article, I would care. On a forum for average people? My post is fine, get what you can out of it.
If I was getting paid to write an article, I would care. On a forum for average people? My post is fine, get what you can out of it.
900+ words in one single block are off-putting.
Other forum members have no problem using the Enter key once in a while,
it would only be fair to return the favour.
@Nemo
I am more of the player who has lived his life as musician and has made his choices of life according to the needs and ways of a musician.
All the talkings and discussion about the "future of gear" are nice and I like them very much but dont forget what it is all about in the end:Music
Much more important than gear is love & knowledge about the laws of music and hard work than any piece of gear.
And I will not conclude that you-dear Nemo-dont know anything about these sacrifices of really,really digging deep into the rabbithole of music instead of buying "the future" in form of some tool because I simply dont know you as you dont know me to draw conclusions like you did so easily in your very first sentence in the post above.
peace & love
