Not possible with the KPA?

Quote from Awesome_Elvis

with the preamp stage being pushed hard and the boss SD-1, isn't likely to assume that the amount of power amp distortion is minimal?

Nope, one has little to do with the other. Back then the JCM800 had just surfaced. Prior to that (1970's) cranking the amp until breakup was a common method. So that didn't go away with the arrival of the master volume idea. Rock guitarists through history always seem to want more gain. It wasn't until the in the later 80's when things started moving to overly saturated two-part preamps & rack amps (thinks ADA MP1). Then in the 90's further guitar amps began evolving to incorporate even more gainy preamps. The more time went on, the more the focus changed from power stage breakup (blasting the amp and/or using lower breakup tubes to coax things) and instead transitioned into more front-end gain stages and operating with a more clean power section, so to speak.

This is a bit of a condensed synopsis with some generalities, but essentially that is the general evolution, FWIW.

Sonic

Quote from chopsfromhell

Recorded this a few years back. Sound close? If so, I can go back and see what profile I used.

my attempt at covering Vivian Campbell

Thanks for listening.

Thank you very much for sharing this. Very nice. rendition. This is also an excellent example however of the KPA trying to do a impression that is definitely not the gain structure of the original, it is quite different. This is a perfect example of what I mean by the KPA not sounding real to my ears. But rather a modeler of sorts. Maybe this will finally be accepted as an example of what I've been referring to for the last few months (and IMO unfairly catching hell for).

If you can recall what you used - profile (amp/cab), guitar and anything else it would be appreciated. Maybe I can use it to continue work/investigation from, maybe use it as a loose comparison to double check my KPA seems functioning Ok

Nice rendition on the recording by the way.

Thanks.

Sonic

Here's another example that I'd be interested hearing out the KPA but have yet to encounter:

I do however suspect this tone may easier to mimic on the KPA than the Dio tone though simply due to the type of tone and production involved. But listen carefully to the upper end of the gain registers which again are very indicative of power stage action.

Sonic

Quote from Awesome_Elvis

Speaking of complex tones,

How in the blue blazes do I get THIS TONE?!?!

It's at 0:17-0:24 first few chugs before the 2nd guitar comes in

https://youtu.be/LC_5WIep32g

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Start by:

1) Hiring an orchestra
2) Hiring a choir
3) Drop Tuning the guitars to Z-Flat

Interesting..... I don't relate Lynch's largely Marshall-esque tones with a Soldano but am willing try to any profile that sounds like a real amp to my ears for direct recording of 80's style high gain tones.

Something just crossed my mind....

Based on what we already know, the KPA can do preamp OR power stage distortion, but when they mix together it can potentially create issues for profiling. However, there is another question mark that surfaces in all that....

What about the instance where the power stage is relied heavily upon for breakup, with the preamp NOT participating too extensively in the gain staging, however still being pushed by a stomp that, in itself, may be generating a clipped signal? Case and point, Back for the Attack release (video provided earlier in this thread). That was a cranked Plexi pushed on the front end by an overdrive/screamer (among a few other tricks). Point being, how would the KPA tend to react to THAT scenario??

Seriously guys, I think all KPA users and prospective buyers need to know this stuff. Granted I could eventually figure most of this out on my own but there is no way I'm driving across town with a rented U-Haul and dragging out of storage 30+ years of vintage gear (everything from amps to cabs to stomps and misc gadgets) and then spending weeks in the studio (plus hunting down some specific studio tools) all to try and profile amps just to figure out what the KPA can and cannot do. Sure I may end up with awesome profiles, and sure I could hypothetically sell them (especially since it appears there may be a huge gap in the area of proper tones I'm after). However that's NOT why I got the KPA, Rather it was for the opposite intent - to get away from having to deal with that massive headache of time and energy and expense I just described. (Plus to be able to track at home at any hour without fear of the authorities knocking on my door). The KPA has been touted specifically for direct recording and promoted by top notch studio producers. So it's not like I had unfair expectations of the device.

Part of what I'm still trying to figure out is the very basic question of what is the actual baseline issue? Is it a KPA limitation or rather a lack of proper profiles having been made as of yet. (Or maybe I haven't located yet?).

I really appreciate any constructive input and/or effort to help out. And thank everybody for their constructive input thus far.

Kind regards,

Sonic

Quote from domsch1988

Maybe the main Problem is, that you're comparing apples and oranges? One is the Kemper Profile. It's intended to give a accurate representation of a ready to record signal chain. With Amp, Cab, and Mic. The other is a produced song. After recording there are EQ's, Effects and Post processing applied to make it sound good. Often, the guitar sound changes massively in post production from what the initial amp and Microphone produced.It's the same problem i have with al those people trying to get Jimi's tone. A big part of what we hear today is lossy recording techniques (Tape, LP) and years of degredation of playback medias. But that's only my opinion...

Totally understand what you are saying and it is a very valid point. However, I have been doing this so long that I'm actually more used to a mice'd guitar than a live one, so that's not the issue. Most of the tones I'm referring to really didn't have a whole lot special stuff going on in the mix beyond the typical low pass, some EQ carving and compression maybe. Possibly touch of chorus, mostly basic stuff. What can however complicated matters is when multi cabs/mics/amps are layered in ways that mask any one given underlying tone. But even then, this isn't the real issue, I can actually hear differences in the gain structure (for lack of a better way to describe it). There is an unmistakable snarl and a harmonic gain breakup in the upper end of the tones I'm after that is just not there in anything I've heard come out of the KPA so far. Those two elements are almost always retained, even in full production recordings no matter what is done to the tracks. Again though, I get what you are saying, there's guys who may play the KPA and get frustrated about it not sound like a recording, or who don't know how to make it sound like a reference recording. That's not what is going on in my case.

Quote from sambrox

Have you tried taking a low-medium gain profile, increasing the tube shape and putting a Green Scream or DS Stomp in front of the profile?
I hope it works out for you. When I sort out the logistics of getting my JMP (basically an early JCM800. Same circuit) profiled properly, I'll keep you in mind and try to make a few profiles that get close to the sound you're after. Until then, good luck

Thanks. Yes, absolutely, spent many hours learning the imprints the overdrive stomps impart. But those won't fix things if the underlying amp/profile is missing the core tone elements. Tried the stomps (internal & external) along with many amp/cab combinations. Seems the structural framework of the tone can be reached but some of the key elements I'm after are still elusive as of yet.

Sonic