Not possible with the KPA?

    Last one for this go around. To be able to have even this diversity of tones available in one box is worth the price of admission for me. For my needs and ears, it is definitely possible with the KPA. Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. This is just mine. Maybe I will post some more stuff down the road. Thanks for listening!


    Taking at humble whack at the reason I started playing guitar...


    Romeo Delight (Kemper guitar only cover)

    LP into the first rig on the Rig Exchange under JCM800 "JCM 800 Hi Gain" by Capitancamparro, switch to a One DS and up the tone on the pedal a tad, slap in a noise gate too while you're at it. You're there.


    The problem is a JCM800 with a LP and booster or dist wont make that sound either. Why? Because honestly I think this is another classic case of not separating the guitar and bass sounds while you're listening. If you can get the raw stems then you'd hear that the guitar is a hot fizzy mess, the bass is doing a lot of work on that tone, making things sounds more complex than they are, you could potentially get a bit closer with a dual path shoving an octaver and compressor on the second path, but that sort of sound doesn't happen without either a band or a studio and multitracking.


    So in answer. Nope. The Kemper cannot make this sound. Nor can a JCM800. This is about arrangement and studiocraft.

    Quote from Per

    I think this is another classic case of not separating the guitar and bass sounds while you're listening. If you can get the raw stems then you'd hear that the guitar is a hot fizzy mess, the bass is doing a lot of work on that tone, making things sounds more complex than they are

    I agree completely on this. In fact, I just had another quick go at getting closer to that 80's rhythm sound, using Dokken as a guide. I had to record a bass guitar and loop it while playing and tweaking the guitar to put the sound into context.The profile I used as a base was the same test bedroom profile I used and attached earlier. The raw tone from the Kemper gets pretty close to my ears. Some further compression and slight EQ sculpting in the DAW would nail it, I reckon. Out of context, it's pretty fizzy and scooped, as you can hear yourselves haha :)

    MDK is correct, I was referring to the lifespan of the KPA, I've had it for about three months.


    @chopsfromhell , thanks for posting clips, will have to listen to them later tonight in a proper environment


    There is no wrong clips to post as long as the intention is to help. Sincerely, there is no KPA bashing, I just want to get to the bottom hof ow to derive the classic metal tones I have yet to hear or extract.


    @Tritium , Yes, understood, I already have a real SD-1 from the period in my vintage pedal collection which I bought myself in the early 80's And I also have a top notch boutique SD-1 that was modded for me. So that's not the issue. And I have the same pickups in my reference guitar. These things are just coincidences probably because I was doing this stuff at the same time in that same era.


    I posted two examples of tones, the Dio Holy Diver tone, and the Dokken Back fo the Attack tone. Two very different tones, one that is also pedal/preamp involved while the other that is almost entirely power stage. I could post more. Point being, those tones share common attributes of a cranked amp from the period that I cannot get, or not heard, yet from the KPA. Yes, some technique is involved, and tones evolve over time (becoming way too preampy today IMO) but at the end of the day, seems I need help in figuring this out if I'm going to have the KPA work for me.


    BTW, I did try to use the SD-1 into the KPA, no dice. I also tried some Tube Screamers. They do sound better, but it's not helping with the congestion & raspy gain that I just can't shake off the KPA tones. The growl/snarl and top end gain harmonics that come about from the power stage hard at work remain elusive....


    * UPDATE*


    As I posted this two more entries came in. Yes, there are some mix elements involved but you need to listen to the core tones, there is no mistaking what I'm hearing and it has little do with EQ or mix tricks. Shelving, some carving and maybe compression or chorus is about all that was done back then. Differences yes, but no tricks and nothing that explains the core elements that remain elusive. I'll give a listen to the clips later tonight.


    Thanks again guys for taking time tor read and trying to help out, much appreciated. And to anybody else who joins in with good intentions.


    Cheers,



    Sonic

    Edited once, last by SonicExporer: Update, cross posts ().

    Like 2
    Quote from SonicExporer

    MDK is correct, I was referring to the lifespan of the KPA, I've had it for about three months.

    So, you've spent three months chasing your dream tone via other people's profiles, but can't spare a few hours to profile amps that produce tone you know and love because it takes too much time and effort?

    Quote from ColdFrixion

    So, you've spent three months chasing your dream tone via other people's profiles, but can't spare a few hours to profile amps that produce tone you know and love because it takes too much time and effort?

    I've already addressed this question that you've raised more than once (IIRC). We are not talking just a few hours, very far from it. And unless/until I hear something that demonstrates the KPA can produce the tone elements, I'm not about to spend that kind of additional time & effort to potentially discover the KPA can't even profile the tones. Please stay more constructive and refrain from the leading argumentative questions.

    Quote from SonicExporer

    I've already addressed this question that you've raised some three times now (I think). We are not talking just a few hours, very far from it. And unless/until I hear something that demonstrates the KPA can produce the tone elements, I'm not about to spend that kind of additional time & effort to potentially discover the KPA can't even profile the tones. Please stay on topic and refrain from the leading argumentative questions.

    I don't want to hear it. It's completely on topic because you're the one who's repeatedly claimed you can't achieve those tones, yet you've failed to even so much as try to profile your own amps, all the while claiming that you can achieve the desired tone with them. Any money you've spent on commercial profiles would've been better spent profiling your own amps. Your reasons for not profiling your amps are excuses, in my opinion.

    @chopsfromhell , I listened to the clips, that's some nice playing. And I hear the framework you are going for in trying to emulate the tones. But they are not close to the real amp tones. Simply A/B to the original references. Rather large difference.and this isn't due to mixing. It's the core tone elements. Very different tonal elements between the KPA and real amp.


    When the KPA tracks are done in isolation they can be rather deceiving for certain tones, such as the tones I'm chasing. All you have to do however is listen to the reference tracks, or put them in a mix against a real amp and the difference is apparent. Well, if you know what to listen for anyway.


    BTW, for some of these songs we've been discussing I actually have the original guitar tracks, as well as the rest of the song minus guitars, and believe me, the KPA is not getting there. Some of this I know is a mic effect matter. Which is one reason why I reached out to see if there are profiles maybe I haven't located yet. It remains unclear where the issue is, lack of profiles, inability for KPA to profile, etc.


    @sambrox, will try to load that profile soon and take a listen

    What you're aiming for happens after you affirm it. Like a dog chasing its tail you will never find it because you don't want to find it,you just want to draw attention to yourself.

    That's why I posted my isolated guitar tracks, so you could have a good listen without anything else in the way. Far from it that I'm claiming the guitar tones in use, or the playing, are supposed to be spot on. Wasn't my intention. Honestly I live in the middle of nowhere and have extremely limited experience with the the actual amps profiled, so I'm not finding this all that surprising. What I am saying is that the Kemper is close enough for my purposes, and I am once again having a blast playing guitar since I bought it. There are plenty of more talented, more experienced players out there using the Kemper than myself, that is for sure. Perhaps they get better results as well. Just thought I'd share some of what I've been up to and share some of my exuberance for the Kemper. May post some more when I get some time. Thanks for the compliments on the playing, much appreciated!

    Quote from Awesome_Elvis

    What about a studio eq after the cabinet block?

    Spent a significant amount of time both pre and post EQ. And in mix. The core structures of the gain tones are simply not there. It's not like I didn't already know that based on what my ears said right out of the gate, but still I did make a serious attempt over the course of the last few weeks to see how far EQ could go with various rig combinations. Sure EQ helps, but not enough to fix the underlying deficiencies.

    Quote from Awesome_Elvis

    compressor after cabinet block?

    You can try it either way. The KPA simply doesn't have enough versatility (EQ or compressor wise) to match the Rainbow In The Dark Tone. EQ matching and a lot of compression in your DAW can get you most of the way there, but some tonal differences are undoubtedly the result of playing style.

    Quote from Awesome_Elvis

    compressor after cabinet block?

    Well, that'd be the same as adding it during mixing if he's not using the onboard 'verb or delay, and I assume Sonic has tried heavy-handed compression with slow attack and release times in his mixing experiments.


    IMHO, this sort of compression is important to help emulate that tube-saggy sound and to get it to pump and breathe as we heard in the clip. However, he insists it's a frequency-response / breakup-tonality issue that he's super-sensitive to, and I've no reason to doubt him.


    If it were me, I'd just carve the bottom end out and lay on the aforementioned heavy compression during mixing, and probably use a lower Definition setting on the KPA and crank the tube sag and amp-compression parameters for more vintage goodness. Thankfully I'm not so attuned to the '80s tone in question that it'd matter. Sure, I know and love the sound, but I haven't, as Sonic has, actually mic'd the period-authentic amps and mixed that tone, which is something he's done a lot of apparently.

    Quote from Monkey_Man

    Sure, I know and love the sound, but I haven't, as Sonic has, actually mic'd the period-authentic amps and mixed that tone, which is something he's done a lot of apparently.

    You can mic amps all day long and the result won't sound like the guitar stems to Rainbow In The Dark without a bit of mixing.