Are effects the sum of each other in the chain for pre and post stack in Kemper?

  • 1. On post stack, If effects slots are X, Mod, DLY, and Rev then is the result the same no matter the order they are placed?

    So, placing a Delay (A) before the Reverb (B) gets you A + B = C. Swapping positions get you the same B + A = C.


    2. What about stomps with the Kemper? If you place an OD (A) before a Dist (B) is the result as above? A + B = C and B + A = C.


    3. Is adding plugins to a DAW track the same sum no matter the position in the track FX list?

    Larry Mar @ Lonegun Studios. Neither one famous yet.

  • The order of effects does matter. Perhaps not always audible, but the difference is: do you want a delay with reverb or a reverb with delay.

    If your ears tell you 'it's alright', then it's alright.

    The same with different order of distortion, fuzz of overdrive. Try it and you'll hear the difference (or not...).

  • As said above. The order matters, because it's linear.


    A previous (different) effect will always have a different impact on the next and therefore on the rest of the chain and the overall tone (and if swapped in pre, also the feel). For example: I very often use a soft shaper after a drive. I used to place it before but now I like it better after, it just sounds and feels a bit different ("better", imo). Try yourself. Same with reverbs and delays. That's why so many (?) wish they had more than two parallel paths in the fx section (after the stack), in order to stop delay, reverb and other fx interactions. That's where the notorious wish for that new feature or a K2 kicks in, for example. But you don't "need" it until you stumbled over it.

    Better have it and not need it, than need it and not have it! - Michael Angelo Batio

  • As said above. The order matters, because it's linear.


    A previous (different) effect will always have a different impact on the next and therefore on the rest of the chain and the overall tone (and if swapped in pre, also the feel). For example: I very often use a soft shaper after a drive. I used to place it before but now I like it better after, it just sounds and feels a bit different ("better", imo). Try yourself. Same with reverbs and delays. That's why so many (?) wish they had more than two parallel paths in the fx section (after the stack), in order to stop delay, reverb and other fx interactions. That's where the notorious wish for that new feature or a K2 kicks in, for example. But you don't "need" it until you stumbled over it.

    drive and shaper effects are non-linear and changing the order will have a substantial effect on the tone/sound/feel/compression/gain produced.
    an OD into a fuzz is completely different from a fuzz into the same OD for example.

    The order of effects like delay, reverb chorus etc matters because a chorus into a delay will give the repeats their original modulation, whereas a delay into a chorus will result in the delay's dry signal and the delay's repeats receiving the same modulation etc.

  • drive and shaper effects are non-linear and changing the order will have a substantial effect on the tone/sound/feel/compression/gain produced.
    an OD into a fuzz is completely different from a fuzz into the same OD for example.

    The order of effects like delay, reverb chorus etc matters because a chorus into a delay will give the repeats their original modulation, whereas a delay into a chorus will result in the delay's dry signal and the delay's repeats receiving the same modulation etc.

    Didn't I just say that? Well, that's what I meant ^^. "Linear" chain as an opposite to a parallel chain.

    Better have it and not need it, than need it and not have it! - Michael Angelo Batio

  • So, the Kemper mirrors a analog effects chain.


    Are the Effects in slots X, Mod, DLY, and REV the same as placing effects in a tube amp fx loop?

    Larry Mar @ Lonegun Studios. Neither one famous yet.

  • So, the Kemper mirrors a analog effects chain.


    Are the Effects in slots X, Mod, DLY, and REV the same as placing effects in a tube amp fx loop?

    having a delay in the DLY slot and a reverb in REV slot gives you the added benefit of being able to choose between serial and paralell processing AND everything in between - it's really more like post-processing as would be available in a studio setting

  • So, the Kemper mirrors a analog effects chain.


    Are the Effects in slots X, Mod, DLY, and REV the same as placing effects in a tube amp fx loop?

    I would say clearly no, if you follow the chain. The chain in a a physical amp is preamp>loop(fx)>poweramp>speaker. In the Kemper and the way it is done in modellers most of the time it's preamp>poweramp>speaker>FX (delay, reverb). You can cange the order however you want in newer units like the Helix (you could place the fx between pre and poweramp) but I've never done that in the past and never saw anybody do that. Everyone places the FX after the stack. In the physical world that would be like micing the amp and adding FX in the console before the signal goes to the PA speakers.

    Better have it and not need it, than need it and not have it! - Michael Angelo Batio

  • I would say clearly no, if you follow the chain. The chain in a a physical amp is preamp>loop(fx)>poweramp>speaker. In the Kemper and the way it is done in modellers most of the time it's preamp>poweramp>speaker>FX (delay, reverb). You can cange the order however you want in newer units like the Helix (you could place the fx between pre and poweramp) but I've never done that in the past and never saw anybody do that. Everyone places the FX after the stack. In the physical world that would be like micing the amp and adding FX in the console before the signal goes to the PA speakers.

    Agree with you except for this configuration with Helix. There are preamp/amp(preamp+poweramps)/cabs/combo blocks but not poweramp alone.... So it won't be possible to place a FX between a preamp and a poweramp....But like you said, never seen this configuration....

  • I'm not sure BayouTexan 's question has been answered but just summarizing what has been said in my mind :).


    I think he is asking does the post effects function in the same way as a regular effects loop works and I think the answer is yes. The secondary question is which effects loop, serial or parallel and by default its series unless you select parallel path?


    The only exception seems to be the power amp point from Steve5478 because a profile does not distinguish between pre amp and power amp which I think is correct ?

  • I think he is asking does the post effects function in the same way as a regular effects loop works and I think the answer is yes.

    Exactly NOT this (see answers above). The answer already was no. At least if Kemper does not do anything different than the other digital units, internally. Yes, everything has been already answered, I would say, or not?

    Better have it and not need it, than need it and not have it! - Michael Angelo Batio

  • Agree with you except for this configuration with Helix. There are preamp/amp(preamp+poweramps)/cabs/combo blocks but not poweramp alone.... So it won't be possible to place a FX between a preamp and a poweramp....But like you said, never seen this configuration....

    Yep, you're right. Helix has mere preamp blocks but no power amp blocks...

    Better have it and not need it, than need it and not have it! - Michael Angelo Batio

  • I'm still confused. Don's comment would suggest the effects slots are similar to an FX loop. I found this explanation on the internet...


    There are two types of effects loop: series and parallel. Series FX loops send the entire signal through the loop and back into the amp. Parallel FX loops split the signal into two, and send only one signal through the loop, then you can use a “blend” control to adjust how much you are hearing of each signal.


    Most amplifiers have a series effects loop, which is the easiest of the two types to use.


    So, is "serial or parallel processing" similar to how a serial or parallel loop is handled on a real amp?

    Larry Mar @ Lonegun Studios. Neither one famous yet.

  • Confusion perfection. Let's talk:


    1. In a physical amp with an fx loop, the loop (and therefore whatever FX you put in there) sits between the pre and the power amp. This loop in itself can be serial or parallel, or it can be switchable, blendable or both, depending on the manufacturer and how it is built. So if it is in parallel you often can choose how much of the wet signal you blend in parallel into the dry signal (depending on how that thing is built). If it's a serial loop you won't have the option of blending. In such a rig with a loop you would hear that complete wet signal in your guitar speaker. You can then mic the speaker and send that complete wet signal to the console and FOH. Or you can choose option 2. for an amp without a loop (or with a loop that you don't want to use):


    2. A physical amp without a loop (such as older amps): The signal from the speaker is dry (unless you put fx in front of the amp like The Edge does). So you mic the speaker with that dry signal, send it to the console and can then add FX, before the signal goes FOH. These FX can be blended in whatever way, of course: parallel serial etc. In a console you can do whatever you want.


    3. In digital units like the Kemper, Helix, Fractal etc. the "amps" don't have a "loop". You place the FX after the (digital) modelled "power amp" and, as I said, most people place them even at the complete end of the chain (at least always after the speaker). In the Kemper you do not have the option to put FX between amp and speaker, while in Helix etc. you can. So that whole digital way is like doing it with an amp without a loop (see 2.). With the Kemper you can choose to put reverb and delay (if you put them into the last two slots, where they are supposed to be) in parallel or blend them in whatever way you want. In more "modern" units like Helix or Fractal you can do much more complex routings. In theory you could put as many fx in parallel as you want (well not really but you get the point). So before the signal goes FOH, for example, you could put 2 delays and 2 reverbs all in parallel (4 paths that don't interfere with each other). With Kemper that's not possible. In the Kemper the X and the 6th slot are always in series and will affect each other. Only the last two slots can be in parallel, if you so choose and therefore don't want the FX in those last two slots to affect each other.


    I hope all that makes somehow sense to you, now.

    Better have it and not need it, than need it and not have it! - Michael Angelo Batio

    Edited 5 times, last by Alienator ().

  • My experience with an amp's (serial) fx loop is when I put a delay and/or verb, or any modulation in the loop then those effects sound softer yet more articulate. If I put them before the amp input then they get a little harsher and more distortion (when raising gain). Raising the gain does not seem to distort the effects in the loop.


    On the Kemper those modulation effects in front of the stack sound pretty much the same as going into my amps. And the effects after the stack sound softer and more articulate the same as my amp loop. I am using "stereo" effects with Kemper and mono effects with the amp loop.


    So, modulation effects are smoother and more articulate in the amp's serial loop and the Kempers effects slots, to me anyway.


    I wasn't sure if Effects position after the Stack mattered. I always put delay in DLY, and reverb in Rev, and any other modulation in X and Mod. I need to experiment and mix those effects up to see how much difference (good or bad) it makes for me.


    Thanks everyone for input!

    Larry Mar @ Lonegun Studios. Neither one famous yet.

  • By convention, it's said that you have to place modulations FX the farther at the end of the chain in the order that you (and Kemper hardware) give (modulation/delay/reverb).


    Softwares and modelers can easily do so.


    With FX loop the guitarist put it in but FX are not exactly place at the same position. I assume the result is a little different.


    For amps without FX loop, as said Alienator, those effects are done on the mix table.

    When i think about it, it means the guitarist doesn't control this part (it's strange :/^^:P)


    In this case, we could have guitare/amp/mics plug into a delay/reverb send to the console and it would be coherent with modelers....This solution is not complicated, don't know why i've never seen/heard about that ?!


    You should experiment, i know i like to put sometimes a long delay before amp stack for solos, a spring reverb before amp for clean fenders or a flanger/chorus before for a softer clean intro....