Using Kemper Stage to Power an external Cabinet

Don't overcomplicate it. Monitor out from the Stage to power amp in. Power amp out to physical cabinet.

Absolutely no need for something like an OX box.

Can you do it? Yes

Should you do it? That comes down to your personal taste. Its your money so whatever floats your boat is fine.

Would I do it? Nope. Can’t see any advantage for me only negatives like cost and extra gear to lug around. That’s just my personal view though. Other views may be equally valid.

I'm not familiar with an ox box but its a load box? The purpose of a load box is to be able to run valve amps which need to be cranked to get that "valve sound", usually the pre amp sound, which is what is already emulated in the KPA. Therefore not sure what it would be needed for.

You could also ditch a guitar cab and get a powered Kabinet...

I don’t see what the OX box adds in this scenario.

If you are going to run the Kemper into the OX then into the front of a valve amp what is the OX doing? You can run the Kemper straight in without the OX.

If you want to run it into the mixer and PA then, again, what is the OX going to add that the Kemper doesn’t already to?

In my case I run one of two setups in rehearsal rooms.

1 - if the Pa in the room is just a crappy vocal PA, I run my power head into the unpowered cab (comparable with running the stage into a powered cab).

2 - in most cases the PA in the room is pf decent enough quality that I just plug straight into the desk and don’t even bother taking a cabinet.

A Kabinet is meant for monitoring. Period.

You can use it for primary sound - but that is not what its for.

If there is a PA, why not use a channel there to put the guitar in? Done and dusted.

Quote from jmitch1029

Both of those are very valid and true points. Whole idea of kemper is to do away with so much gear to carry around and maintain in favor of a direct solution. However I am finding at least in my current stage of life and playing that I often end up using the kemper stage as more of a pedalboard than anything else.

I’m a college student and I am often in and out of rehearsals in dry rooms where we are only using a PA for microphones and keyboards. In these times the kemper becomes a pedalboard and loop for my auxiliary drives I’ve added onto my board to supplement what kemper offers. I then use the kemper for a clean boost, or any delay/rev/mod/eq/comp into the face of an amp, so I miss out on my profiles I spend so much time designing for scenarios, since those amps are redundant when going into the face of another amplifier.

I looked at the kemper powered cab but everything I’ve seen shows it getting ruthlessly overpowered by a drum kit. Our drummer is heavy handed so that definitely won’t work. I am just looking for a solution where I can use the direct profiles with the rig I currently have without getting a whole new kemper, remote, and cabinet, and reconfiguring a board around it

Its up to you how you run it but I'm similar to Wheresthedug.

The starting point is my Kemper is my preamp, with all my amp gain sounds and effects, no outboard gear. It emulates a valve amp so I don't need a valve amp, only a ss amp to amplify this. I have the powered rack so I use the on board amp but if I had a stage I would run a powered cab or the PA or a separate ss power amp into a guitar cab. Note this is why I bought the powered rack and remote, to avoid the hassle, wires etc.

Also note ANY changes to monitoring will require changes as all monitors sound different, so even some kind of set up with an Ox box will require changes to your profiles.

I think you are restricted in using direct profiles as well. This means you can't eventually run direct and will always have to mike cabs or play off the backline ( which I strongly advise against). I would at least use Merged profiles but I prefer studio profiles and use the monitor cab off to run guitar cabs as the main out will still have the cab emulation.

Live I run a Kabinet - I can tell you it is easily more powerful than any drummer. I did a test using the on board amp meter and I physically could not go above 30 watts it was too loud. The speaker is rated at 200 watts so plenty of headroom. I play in an 80's hair metal band and our drummer is painfully loud. People who tell you the powered kabinet isn't loud enough with their stage is usually because they haven't turned up the power boost.

Good news is you have lots of options, none requiring the need for the OX box. If it was me and you were worried about keeping things as close as you have them, back to the original suggestion - separate power amp into guitar cab.

Hope that makes sense.

Quote from V8guitar

Live I run a Kabinet - I can tell you it is easily more powerful than any drummer.

I second this. It can be ferociously loud or whisper quiet.

I don’t have time to provide a complete answer right now. I’m sure others will chime in

PA systems are built to reproduce all types of sounds. Every live show you’ve seen using a PA had the guitar in there. it would be a rarity if it didn’t.

If you haven’t tried it, do so. It can be as simple as setting proper volume levels, might need some eq or what have you. You never know until you try.

It works- you just have to do it to figure out what needs to change.

Quote from jmitch1029

Sorry I didn’t really articulate well.

I meant using an Ox box or similar Class D amp/attenuator to power an unpowered traditional cabinet to retain the feel and sound of an amplifier in a room, using kemper direct profiles with internal cabinets off.

I haven’t tried PA in rehearsal because:

1) when I’m in a PA I am afraid I am covering up the vocalists to compete for volume with the drummer and another guitarist who is using a physical amp.

If you run PA how do you get around this issues? I’m a young guy and I am learning these systems and general practical music/life skills. I’m also trying not to step on any toes

I also recognize the issue I’m describing may not be my own and could be the malpractice of others around me not playing at an appropriate volume. Or my own self playing too loudly over singers. Overall it’s very balanced, and I am learning. I’m not someone to intentionally play over musicians and I do my best to play with musical sense, so maybe it’s an EQ issue.

I am basically looking to get the warm amp-in-room boomy sound that the physical amps are getting in an effort to keep with them and not stick out. I am obviously aware that kemper is not designed with this in mind and is meant to purely replicate miked amp into cab signal chains, or a direct profile to later be fed into a physical amp using a Powered Kemper unit. I’m looking for a workaround to get a similar experience that you’d find on a powered kemper, but by using a Kemper Stage.

Ultimately, i will get the best results out of the kemper running direct into the PA always. But just trying to see if there’s a better way.

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Hopefully this will help:

1) I don't know the Ox box but load boxes are not amps, they are the opposite, they attenuate amps ( basically take a high input signal and lower it) to get valve distortion at not crazy volumes. The Ox box could be both but the point is you don't need to attenuate anything so its a very expensive solution when all you need is a solid state amp for circa £200 at most. Solved. We are only suggesting even easier solutions.

2) PA's - every major gig you go to all the instruments go through the PA. They are separated because they operate different sonic ranges. Could you clash with the singer etc? Maybe but arguably you will do that anyway out a guitar cab. A crappy PA may struggle but you will be surprised, so try it....BUT use -12db and you need a cab on your profile ( direct will sound awful). Test your profiles with headphones first...If you play live you defiantly want to go through the PA ( as should the drums and bass). Any time you use just a vocal PA, the sound will be at best unbalanced but most likely crap, regardless of venue size.

3) The Kemper IS designed to do this but you need to set it up correctly. You can use a guitar cab if you want but you need an amp. You can go through a regular amp but you defeat the point of its wonderful amp emulation/get too much colouration. The Kemper will support all the options we mention, its what you prefer. I started with regular guitar cab miked up, then guitar cab but direct into PA, then FRFR and finally Kabinet. The Kabinet is the best IMO by a long shot and will blow away any 4x12.

If you are new to this take it one step at a time. The set up is way easier than you are trying to make it.

Quote from jmitch1029

Ah I had mostly been cranking master. I use studio patches if ever running direct. Didn’t understand use of direct patches.

I definitely am complicating things a bit when I need to just trust in the PA’s (they are very nice Live PA’s from Yamaha) to do their job and let the audio engineers do their jobs live. And do my job in designing usable and playable profiles that do not cloud up mixes. Thank you very much for your help!

If you've got a sound engineer, tell him you have a Kemper and and ask where should you plug in. Main out to wherever he says.

The rest is up to him...and I mean *literally* his freaking job. He'll work out your monitor mix as well and tell you if the main out level needs to change. Most likely you'll want to tick the -12db option. The Kemper's outputs are way hot.

OK, I'm old but necessarily wise but here are my thoughts anyway.

Quote from jmitch1029

I meant using an Ox box or similar Class D amp/attenuator to power an unpowered traditional cabinet to retain the feel and sound of an amplifier in a room, using kemper direct profiles with internal cabinets off.

OK, that makes sense and is a perfectly viable strategy.

However, you don't need an OX box to achieve it. The OX is designed to take the output from a valve amp speaker out and tame this to a line level which can then be recorded or reamplified to a more comfortable level with the solid state power amp. This is the same as the BOSS Tube Amp Expander and some other units like the Two Notes Torpedo Reload. In fact I have just checked the manual for the OX and TAE and neither are actually suitable for your purpose as they only have a Speaker level input. I mistakenly assumed they also had a line level similar to my Two Notes Reload.

All you need is a simple Class D power amp or even a class A/B solid state amp. There are plenty available for a fraction of the cost of an OX (because they don't need to build in all the power amp attenuation functionality that you don't need anyway). Something like the Palmer Macht 402, ISP Stealth, Seymour Duncan Power Stage etc etc etc. Any of these should allow you to drive a traditional Guitar Cab OR an unpowered full range cabinet like the passive Cabinet.

Quote from jmitch1029

I haven’t tried PA in rehearsal because:

1) when I’m in a PA I am afraid I am covering up the vocalists to compete for volume with the drummer and another guitarist who is using a physical amp.

If you run PA how do you get around this issues? I’m a young guy and I am learning these systems and general practical music/life skills. I’m also trying not to step on any toes

You are competing with the singer for volume regardless of the amp/speaker choice. However, the issue you are probably worrying about is frequency and directivity (i.e. coming from the same place rather than separate location). EQ is easy - just use the EQ on the desk IF you are stepping on the singer's toes. However, to a large extent this issue will be there whether you are using the PA or a guitar cab. If you are already making sure your tones fit in a mix with other members such as singers then you should have little problem making your tones fit well through a PA. Remember that, at a gig, the full band will be coming through the same PA so as long as you pay attention to mix levels and EQ the rehearsal room should be no different. In practice this may not be entirely true as the smaller enclosed space and the generally lower quality PA may struggle a little compared to a good PA with a decent sound engineer. However, as you are already rehearsing in a room with a PA there is absolutely nothing to lose (and no cost) to simply try it at a few rehearsals before spending money on power amps and speakers.

I typically plug into the PA in mono and pan the guitar a little to one side to help separation. You could still achieve something similar in stereo though.

One quick point to note though. If the desk you are plugging into has Combo XLR/TRS/TS inputs they often automatically default to triggering the mic preamp when using anXLR cable. This can sound horrible with the Kemper. Use XLR to TRS or simple instrument TS>TS calls to avoid this.

Quote from jmitch1029

I also recognize the issue I’m describing may not be my own and could be the malpractice of others around me not playing at an appropriate volume. Or my own self playing too loudly over singers. Overall it’s very balanced, and I am learning. I’m not someone to intentionally play over musicians and I do my best to play with musical sense, so maybe it’s an EQ issue.

That is a very astute observation. In many cases the issue is others playing too loud rather than the guitarist playing too quietly. EQ goes a long way and playing with a little less gain than you think you need can help cut through though.

If you are playing with a loud drummer and are worried that the Kemper Cabinet or similar won't be loud enough then you ABSOLUTELY MUST make sure you are wearing ear protection in rehearsals. You should be wearing it any way but in the scenario you described earlier it is essential. I'm not trying to be some grumpy old kill joy. Quite the opposite, I spent 30+ years with a MESA Dual Rectifier and a loud drummer. My hearing is now severely affected and I have constant tinnitus (ringing in my ears) which I can assure you is no fun for a musician.

Going deaf from playing too loud isn't big or clever.

Quote from jmitch1029

I am basically looking to get the warm amp-in-room boomy sound that the physical amps are getting in an effort to keep with them and not stick out. I am obviously aware that kemper is not designed with this in mind and is meant to purely replicate miked amp into cab signal chains, or a direct profile to later be fed into a physical amp using a Powered Kemper unit. I’m looking for a workaround to get a similar experience that you’d find on a powered kemper, but by using a Kemper Stage.

I have spent most of my life trying to get away from the boomy amp in the room sound. All my favourite guitar sounds were from recordings of amps mic'd up and processed in a mix. The Kemper straight to PA scenario was a game changer for me as it gave me that sort of sound instantly. I understand that many (possibly most) people don't think like this so if you want the Amp In The Room experience your two options are the Kemper Cabinet and imprints (I would go powered Cabinet in this situation) or a standalone power amp and a reggae guitar cab.

Quote from jmitch1029

Ah I had mostly been cranking master. I use studio patches if ever running direct. Didn’t understand use of direct patches.

I definitely am complicating things a bit when I need to just trust in the PA’s (they are very nice Live PA’s from Yamaha) to do their job and let the audio engineers do their jobs live. And do my job in designing usable and playable profiles that do not cloud up mixes. Thank you very much for your help!

You will get it sorted