Some thoughts on sense and nonsense of incorporating FX into the KPA

  • Yesterday I wrote in the thread for the
    to-be footcontroller about how a stock pot pedal could be
    incorporated as a useful volume pedal.



    Having that said, I realized that
    incorporating more and more stuff into the KPA may make little sense.
    Let me explain.



    Valve amps have been around for six
    decades and are still much wanted. As time went by, they have been
    augmented with the effects of the time, such as spring reverb,
    tremolo, later chorus, parametric eq and even later cheap digital
    effects.



    Almost all of those effects have
    disappeared again, making their presence on an amp a curiosity,
    although some of those sounds have gained iconic status.



    Even parametric EQ´s have in my
    experience proven to be little accepted by users, because they make
    radical tone shifts which would necessitate some performance
    switching action that should rather be referred to a programmable
    multi-fx device.



    If you used the KPA just as it were a
    vintage amp, then that´s it. Turn the “amp” on, twiddle the
    knobs for slight EQ-ing, volume and gain and there is not much going
    to change with this sound.



    Modern tube amps usually have two ore
    more channels that can be performance switched. Usually those are
    voiced for different sounds (or there would be no need for them), and
    the KPA can cater for that. That may be a viable reason for a
    performance control (footswitch).



    Fact is, effects are quickly obsoleted,
    tube sound has proven resistant against the abrasion of time.



    There are mainly two usage scenarios
    for amplifiers:



    a) live performance. The amp is not
    only to used to generate tone, but also for reinforcement. The
    traditional way of arranging effects including reverberation is
    guitar-effect-amp-speaker or at best using a dedicated effects loop
    in the amp. This fits the concept of the KPA well because in its
    origins, the KPA is a chameleon amplifier and it is said to do this
    well.



    b) recording. Loudness is not necessary
    to achieve tone with the KPA. Effects may come after the “amp”.
    Typically, effects used to create a spatial illusion (such as reverb)
    come after the amp (-simulation). Note however, that many producers
    these days prefer to record an entirely clean signal which is
    re-amped by software later, so the KPA´s amp mimic-ing
    capability might not even be called for in this chain, letting alone
    alleged FX, except for the musician to feel natural.



    Effects should IMHO stay outside of
    this concept for several reasons:



    • FX frequently change with fashion.


    • Digital FX quality tends to be
      superseded by new developments quickly due to progress in technology
      or refined methods.


    • The KPA cannot profile time-based
      effects such as reverb, delay, chorus, flanging, etc., so those have
      to be modeled in a conventional way. Those have to remain approaches
      by design. I´d rather plug in an external analog effect or
      even my favorite multi-FX device than be at the mercy of the KPA´s
      built in FX, unless those could be loaded into the KPA like profiles
      can. (Note: I am not suggesting bad quality, just different personal
      preference).


    • Modelled overdrive pedal are
      particularly prone to be compromises, but since their original
      purpose was to mimic a valve amp and since the KPA is the most
      perfect overdrive machine, there should be little demand for them
      except for a special effect in the neighborhood of the KPA. Striving
      for quality for those models in the vicinity of the very thing they
      are trying to copy is a cat biting its own tail.


    • The KPA does the amplifier and
      speaker bit exceptionally well and should stick to that.


    • The KPA cannot be made to cater
      for all cases, and you may still need an external FX device, in
      which case we could abandon the KPA´s FX from a start. Reduced
      wiring and external gear are thus not an argument.


    • Recording preferences may dictate
      using a real (tube) amp for tone, or even better the KPA to achieve
      the same tone at ear-friendly volume, but not the FX that are built
      inside. The market is abounding with software plugins that may be
      far superior to any real-time processed effect, or just more
      suitable fore some reason. Particularly effects used to create
      spatial illusion (reverb etc) are to be used with great care in a
      recording, and “wet” recorded signals are almost guaranteed
      going to create a problem later on.



    The conclusion is, IMHO the KPA should
    do what it can do well, namely emulating a (tube) amp´s
    response and functionality, which has proven to be a relatively
    timeless feature, with little more performance switching than
    changing a profile, and refer FX gadgets to external devices or any
    subsequent studio processing, unless those models were made in a way
    that users could change them and create their own. There is a huge
    wealth of untapped ingenious energy amongst users, as the software
    world has proven.



    This is my opinion, based on decades of
    interest and work on musical gear, and not everybody must concur to
    that.




    -helmut

  • Interesting post, Helmut. But one doesn't exclude the other. The Fx set in the KPA, at present, is IMO enough to cover for 90% of live use necessities (in my specific case for 100%, but I'm not an FX freak) in small to medium gigs. The musician playing big productions and big tours will anyway have the chance to integrate the KPA in his existing rack system (look at the Toten Hosen setup! 8o ).
    In studio I agree that any producer will track dry and add the FX's later on.
    So you're are basically right....out of the fact that I don't see the FX in the Kemper interfering with his main function of replicating amp tone: you need them? They are there, You don't? Switch them off...
    I actually enjoy them because, always IMO, they are VERY good and cover all the ground I'll ever need for my specific situation. Taking them off would not make the KPA sounding better or be cheaper...

    "Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" Serghei Rachmaninoff


  • My flow of thoughts was triggered by the forum´s attempts to outline a to-be controller. Many people have many ideas they would like to see incorated in their rig, I had mine.


    I know that with the gear you already have there is always some issues which could be improved some way. But what may be a feature to me may be a nuisance to somebody else.


    So trying to cater for all that may be endless and ultimately futile. Since a given device cannot cater for all possible scenarios, one might as well abandon this thought, or leave it at what is there.


    Maybe the lines I wrote help somebody to re-think their needs, and, indeed, prevent exploring roads that lead nowhere.


    I do not want to patronize somebody, just bring a few thought to discussion.


    -helmut

  • some of you guys seem to spend more time thinking and posting about what the Profiler/Dev Team/Christoph should and shouldn't be doing than playing guitar. :D:D


    ;)


    anyway I'd like to comment on a few points:


    2. digital fx are quickly superseded
    depends on where you look:
    Lexicon 480L, PCM60, 70 etc.
    Eventide H3000
    Ensoniq DP-4
    tc electronic 2290


    these units are still working in many studios today and will continue to do so.
    my point is: if an effect is done right (sounds great/easy to use) it stays. it being analog or digital doesn't matter.


    3. I´d rather plug in an external analog effect or even my favorite multi-FX device than be at the mercy of the KPA´s built in FX
    that just sounds a bit too dramatic ;)



    4. OD pedals mimic a valve amp
    the idea was to push a tube amp harder, the added gain stage/diode clipping can add the impression of sustain and change the timbre, but basically you're adding a gain stage with some tonal control to your amp to expand it's vocabulary.
    the 'marshall in a box'-type pedals are a pretty recent development and as you might have noticed, they are not part of the Profilers dirt pedal arsenal.

  • some of you guys seem to spend more time thinking and posting about what the Profiler/Dev Team/Christoph should and shouldn't be doing than playing guitar. :D :D

    Yes, usually during dead time at the office guitar playing is not appreciated. :D Moreover, what if you cannot afford neither an iconic amp or the most decent emulator thereof?

    Quote

    Die wahren Abenteuer sind im Kopf
    und sind sie nicht in Deinem Kopf,
    dann sind sie nirgendwo


    André Heller

    I agree. I would like to refine my statement to:


    2. consumer digital fx are quickly superseded


    Quote

    that just sounds a bit too dramatic

    this is not to be understood without the subsequent sentence.


    ad 4) Did you notice that people are cloning other manufacturer´s amp models with the KPA? Models that are meant to mimic a tube amp? A whole new field for experimentation.


    have fun,


    -helmut

  • Hey Helmut , its nice to see another guy who have the same point of view regarding amp vs Fx - priority in development in Kemper .


    I thought I am alone .... ;(


    you might like to check this thread out , it is about same thing just a different approach and little bit more dramatic

    :thumbup:


    http://kemper-amps.com/forum/i…page=Thread&threadID=8150


    (sorry I forgot that copied links doesn't work on this Board ...)
    the post is just few posts bellow yours in the same department : " How about to work on KPA main market advantage , instead to waste a time by fulfilling axe oriented demands ??"

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    Edited once, last by Rescator ().

  • I get the OP's point, but have a few considerations on the subject if you don't mind:


    - Like Mr. Petersen has pointed out, good effects do last, if they didn't there wouldn't be a huge market o vintage effects would there? Also depending on how they're implemented, with the right parameter set there's enough flexibility to emulate basically any flavor of a given FX type, which seems to be what the KPA is aiming for.


    - Remember, anything digital effect you add to your signal chain will have A/D and D/A converters, which can potentially degrade your tone and most importantly, will definitely add latency to what's already there from the KPA.


    - KPA + outboard gear = more stuff to lug around when playing live. Might not be an issue for studio players, but for gigging musicians it's kind of a big deal.


    For the above reasons I'd still love that the KPA continue to be the "all-in-one" solution that it already is (at least for me), and even improve on that.

  • - Remember, anything digital effect you add to your signal chain will have A/D and D/A converters, which can potentially degrade your tone and most importantly, will definitely add latency to what's already there from the KPA.

    This is a valid point. I would not worry about tone, since everything will change tone, or as Heisenberg would probably put it, even looking at a system will change its behaviour. This may be a matter of taste, but latency can be an issue.


    Quote

    For the above reasons I'd still love that the KPA continue to be the
    "all-in-one" solution that it already is (at least for me), and even
    improve on that.

    I do not believe that even a hard giggin´ musician does not carry a secret weapon little stompbox with him, but for my personal taste, I am satisfied with a few basic effects anyway. As I said, I have seen people requesting endless features which seem beyond scope.


    I see this discourse may have cleared more blind spots for me than for others. :thumbup:


    -helmut

  • I'm glad the Kemper team is willing to listen to customer requests rather than taking a dogmatic approach to design.


    +1,000,000


    Listen, you folks who are afraid of effects, don't use them. Let me save you a bunch of time/thought, the KPA product goal is to never have the profiles tones change through the lifecycle of the product, this is straight from CK's mouth. So if you're holding out for some type of upgrade to the core tone of the KPA, you will be waiting an eternity.

  • Every company does some pro and contra estimation. Nobody chases a bone blindly.

    Quote

    Listen, you folks who are afraid of effects, don't use them. Let me save
    you a bunch of time/thought, the KPA product goal is to never have the profiles tones change through the lifecycle of the product,
    this is straight from CK's mouth. So if you're holding out for some
    type of upgrade to the core tone of the KPA, you will be waiting an
    eternity.

    Why this anger? Nobody is afraid. Who wanted to change something in this thread? Are we talking about the same subject?


    Besides the customer research every company has to do, the customer has to become clear if a product fits his/her needs, and indeed - his/her wallet. This is the sole purpose of this thread.


    -helmut


  • No anger from me? It is your implication that the KPA should be used solely for amp tones. Is the absolute point of your post to suggest the KPA's profiling process should be able to be applied to effects? If so, rather odd way of stating it.

  • Forae are great since you have a knowledgable community to dwell on something if you have no chance otherwise.
    In the case of this thread, this was "loud thinking". Naturally, one´s scope is always limited, so thanks to a few guys who helped me over my blind spots see much clearer.


    This threads intention is NOT to change anything or suggest change to anybody. The developers will continue to do their thing.
    Since the flame throwers are under way, I phase out.


    Cheers,


    -helmut

  • Flame throwers? Lol. Just because we all dont share the same opinion as you doesnt mean we're flame throwers. You have every right to express your opinion. But I disagree with it and hope that Kemper continues on the same path its on. Will wasnt being angry with you. He simply said if you dont like effects dont use them. There's 8 buttons on top of your Kemper. Turn them all off. Be happy. Im satisfied with the effects in the Kemper. If they dont add anymore Ill still be satisfied. But if they do add more Ill be thrilled. So no worries Helmut, noone is trashing you for stating your opinion. Some of us just disagree, thats all. :thumbup:

  • I say keep the effects coming. As CK promised that the tone of amp profiles won't be changed or sacrificed, the more effect possibilities the better. Better yet, have downloadable effects that don't need to be downloaded with updates, so users that don't want more built in effects don't have to be "burdened" with effects they don't want. As far as effects that don't stand the test of time, that is the whole point of new effects being released. If, say, five years from now there is some new trend with reverb, the folks at Kemper can release an effect that does that fad. As far as this being a product that lasts decades, consider the folks that own it are individuals that are willing to spend more than the typical guitarist. More than likely, within five years, there will be a new version of the KPA that perhaps does some of the things that have been discussed on this forum that likely can't be done on the current version. There's also a possibility that they'll release a version that simply does nothing but amp profiling, perhaps it could fit in a 1U rack, in the next couple years? More than likely, within 5 years, most of us will be lusting after/planning to own a new version of this product. Perhaps it will be a full-featured audio interface that includes a mic preamp and phantom power, or has the ability to mix and blend several profiles, thanks to a future more capable processor? That does not even include the possibility of competition from other companies, doing something similar to what the Kemper does. That fact, is even if you desire a version without all the effects, your current Kemper still includes all the buttons and such for the effects that you don't want.


    Obviously there are reasonable limits on the scope of effects that a single all-in-one can do versus the endless possibilites that can be achieved with dozens of effects pedals and racks of gear. However, at present, the KPA is only lacking a few bells and whistles in the effects area that constitute all of the effects that 99% of guitarists use, and that are present in all lower quality all in one products, and the high end ass-fx. At present, all it really lacks are some pitch effects, and a few synth like things. Since it's capable of handling the live effect needs of most guitarists, why not include them? I own the toaster version (don't we all) and have no desire to get an enormous rack case (think I'd need 4-5U for just the Kemper), then needing a a power conditioner, and rack effects processor. Or having to run 3 or 4 extra cables from my floorboard so that I can integrate external effects. Honestly, for live purposes, the quality of effects is less important. I mean, in most live mixes, is your audience really going to notice a world of difference between a TC electronic analog delay and a Line 6 analog delay, especially when the whole band is playing? For studio use, just bypass them, what's the issue?

  • I entered the Kemper world with a riteous pedal board. The effects onboard are good enough to do a nice job for someone who doesn't want to drag their mission control pedal board around. Even though I could replace many of the effects with what I feel are superior versions that I have tied up in expensive pedals, aside from reverb and delay I generally leave well enough alone and enjoy other's rigs that i downoad. It is nice to have so much flexibility in the KPA to turn on and of whatever you want.


    I understand everyone's thoughts in this thread. I've wondered why we are seeing accessories (foot pedal) and alternate products (rack version, power amp option) being developed before all of the knobs and buttons on the front even work (performance mode, undo/redo). The groundswell for a software interface to up/download rigs into a program that can edit and keep thing organized has been voiced since the beginning. I have a personal gripe (being a big pedal board guy -lol) that I think the effects loop needs to be assigned a location in between slot rather than on one and it should be done in a menu where it can be locked. But... we all have different requests.


    When I read some of the feature requests I think some of them are just asking too much so I can see where the OP is coming from in wondering if Kemper should even be putting time to into such tail chasing. I've got to believe CK can read a thread title and decide what's worth consideration though. Given what Kemper has provided - I just enjoy the hell out of what we have enough to not get to crazed over what I think is missing.

    "Tone is in the fingers" is not a necessary response to anything that I might type on any internet forum threads. Thank you.

  • The KPA is at its core the best digital reprensentation of amp and speaker. The rest is gravy, but I do love me some gravy, so why would anyone deny it?

    New talent management advice to Laura Cox -


    “Laura want to break the internet? let’s shoot another video of you covering the Nightrain solo in the blue singlet, but this time we’ll crank up the air conditioning”.

  • My initial prejudice was for modularity. I think of Yamaha keyboards as an example. If you bought the Yamaha ES you got the Keyboard and effects and recording ability. But if you switched to a DAW, the recorder is an extra cost you don't use. When they upgrade to the Yamaha XS, you gotta rebuy the whole expensive keyboard just for the new effects?


    My solution was to get a MIDI Yamaha keyboard (KX-88, old and still works) and just buy rack units. Had the ES, then upgraded to the XS.


    So I thought this should be the case for 11R, Fractal, KPA, etc.


    But the more I've played with it, I've come to the realization that the Kemper means to deliver essentially a finished signal with it's effects. If a "rig" has certain effects in it's chain, would a raw unit sound as good?


    Probably not. In this market, an 11R would outsell a KPA if it was devoid of effects. People have said here that the dryer stock rigs, lacking reverb and boosts seem to initial users not as good as other rigs that are wetter.


    So the customer thinks that wetter often is the finished product. CK appears to be keen on what the market expects in this regard.


    Besides, amps DO come with Spring Reverb and Tremelo, Phaser, The Room sound, etc and profiling wouldn't be complete without the ability to have those effects for many standard amps.