Profiler OS 4.0 Release Discussion

    Interesting aside.


    Thanks Kemper Team! Now ..... where did I put my FCB1010 upgrade chip? Damn! That's the issue with not immediately installing something when you get it in the mail ;)


    I agree that startup time is important. My gut feeling is that the architecture of the KPA is never going to allow an 8 sec boot. For ME, that is OK. I can live with it, and I vastly prefer the KPA to either Line 6 or Fractal.


    It is what it is. A great tool for gigging and recording. IMO the best guitar product to come along in decades. I can live with a wort here and there. The rest of the device is simply a dream.

    In the home / studio environment, a 1 min bootup time doesn't really matter. IMO anyway :)


    On a stage, it doesn't matter as long as the Kemper is 100% stable. The issue is if you have a glitch for whatever reason and have to reboot. When there is a dance floor full of people and the keys player is glaring at you because he's ready to go and you're not? That's when a minute seems like an awfully long time......

    I heard or read somewhere that KPA takes long to start because it's warming the real tubes inside. On the serious side, I never thought of turning on a digital device to be the equivalent of switching the light, or turning on your wiper blades when it's raining and you can't wait the extra minute. It's sort of nitpicking as I'm sure if it was possible Kemper would have resolved it already, but in the priority list, I can see how it hasn't been top priority. The best things in life are worth waiting for.


    I can think of list of modelers, that start almost instantly but when you start playing and get all the artifacts (and yes that includes the AXE FX II), you start thinking: it probably would have been better had they not even started :D

    This stressing life bring us on exagerating and over estimate the time ...
    It's like in Rome, where I'm leaving, where you are submerged by car horns if you don't sprint in two seconds after the traffic light goes green ...


    Are this 60 seconds so important??? Think about it and enjoy better profiler and life ;)

    Quote from benvigil

    I never had a problem with the boot time, but this argument is a straw man cop out.


    I respectfully disagree, Ben; I haven't an intimate knowledge of the code, and neither does anyone else who's complaining about long boot times. As long as I'm in the dark...


    Quote from benvigil

    You could just as easily say that you can't compare the Kemper to the AxeFX because it's made in Germany. Or to a Mesa Boogie, because it has silver knobs. That's just silly.


    Agreed Ben; that would be silly. Thankfully I didn't stoop that low.


    Quote from benvigil

    Do you realize that a user performing live with Bias Desktop on their Mac, would be up and running faster than a Kemper?


    I hate to sound like a broken record, but that would be apples vs oranges, right? Just 'cause a train and a car both qualify as means of land transportation doesn't in any way necessitate that they share the same basic design, fuel requirements or even means (road vs rail) of "getting there".


    You followed your claim I'd concocted a straw-man copout argument with what is to me a classic case of apples and oranges, thus proving that, from our limited, uninformed (in terms of the coding of the Kemper) perspectives, my erring on the side of caution when it comes to what we compare the Kemper's boot times to, just might be prudent.


    Quote from benvigil

    The distinction between profiler and modeler is a false dichotomy: the bottom line is that we use amps, profilers, and modelers to make noise with the guitar. For the purposes of measuring time-to-performance on, the comparisons ARE indeed apples to apples.


    ... and the further we step back from the picture, the more-easily we can validate practically any comparisons, but I totally get where you're coming from Ben.


    This is an issue of practicality, and it can affect every "live" player. I cannot dispute that; I'm only questioning whether or not we have valid cause to be disgruntled about it. If, say, we knew that in 10 years' time it in fact would be possible for it to boot snappily, either due to processor or software optimisation, but that it couldn't happen until then, we would not have legitimate cause to make the complaint, and that, in essence, is where I'm coming from.


    It could well be that for a 25% increase in RRP we could've had a processor that booted the unit in 12 seconds (5x faster).


    Look mate, I couldn't care less about this. Really. I'm more than happy to agree to disagree if you like. My issue is that I can't imagine a fair method of comparison because I see apples and oranges. You're saying that they're both fruit, and I agree, but that's, for me, where the similarities in design end. So, IMHO:


    Both fruit = both amp simulators
    Apple vs orange = traditional modeller vs Kemper


    This isn't to say that L6 or Fractal won't devise their own means of "user-fingerprinting" amps that affect boot times no more than the additional code might be expected to; that would be a logical assumption IMHO. My whole argument, however, centres around the fact that we don't know how the Kemper's architecture is set up, and therefore cannot fairly make the comparison.


    OK, I'll remove the broken record now, bud. Thanks for listening, mate. I respect your intelligence, so as I said, I'm more than happy if you disagree and think I'm just a silly ape... 'cause I surely am! No argument from me on that one!


    Take care bud.


    Post split into two at this point due to character-count limitation - end of part 01 :P

    Beginning of part 02


    Quote from benifin

    I doubt that I could agree with this more :)


    I understand, mate; I'm just a silly Monkey who's chosen to err on the side of caution when it comes to boot-time expectorant-titty-lactations....


    Quote from benifin

    The Axe and Kemper ... and Helix and A/Fire .... are nothing other than [essentially] highly optimized hardware and software whose sole purpose is to mimic a guitar amp ......


    Agreed.


    Quote from benifin

    Kemper boot times are ridiculously long ........ it 2016 .... not 1986 ...... and the "lag" issues whilst better in 4.0.6 are still way behind 3.X.


    Perhaps we could cut Kemper a little slack and acknowledge that it was at least 5 years ahead of its time. The Helix software, if shoehorned into a mid-90's POD bean, might take half an hour or more to boot for all we know. I'm sure you see the point. It's tough to know what our expectations should realistically be because of the uniqueness of the Kemper, IMHO. I do feel, of course, that if money weren't any object, this limitation likely wouldn't be there; I don't doubt the capabilities of the Kemper Team™ - I am thankful, however, that they made it "affordable".


    Quote from benifin

    I use both an Axe and a KPA a lot .... with one I turn it on and am playing in 8 sec .... the other takes at least 60 sec ...and if you have a Kemper Remote connected you can add another 20+ secs to that


    Agreed.


    Quote from benifin

    If the long boot time issue is fixable and Kemper arent addressing it, thats really annoying.


    Agreed.


    Quote from benifin

    If the long boot time is not fixable due to hardware / software limtations, at least tell us and we can all stop thinking / hoping that this might one day be fixed.


    Agreed.


    Quote from benifin

    Its been an issue for a long time ..... in fairness it has gotten slightly better with 4.0.6 'vs' 4.0.X .... but its still woefully long.


    Agreed.


    Quote from benifin

    The only thing that annoys me about the " Kemper Way " is that it is just that ....... they know best and we need to understand that they know best .... can anybody say editor ?!?!


    Hang on, let me try, Ben....ed... edat...edd... dit... edtr... dang, I can't!


    Maybe the Team™ can't say it either. Perhaps if they said it in German, that would help get them on their way? :D


    Quote from benifin

    Boot times dont matter ....... we probaly aint ever (?) going to get an Editor .......


    Those would be the views of the eternal cynic. Surely they are aware of our frustrations, as evidenced by the fact that they keep up with our forum discussions and suggestions? I'd like to think so anyway.


    Quote from benifin

    I think Kemper could learn a lot from how Line 6 are developing the Helix .... it is massivly user driven and it is moving ahead at a very fast pace ... and yes, a strongly requested feature is " amp capturing " ....... and if you think that aint coming sooner rather than later, you are wrong ......


    Well, Kemper has a history of implementing user feedback in its FW updates. The company even creates dedicated threads, such as the "MIDI-implementaion Suggestions" one that's current. The forum has a feature-requests category.


    Quote from benifin

    For goodness sake ... even Fractal are starting to get on the end-user-feature-driven band-wagon ....and theres a sentence I never thought I would type ....


    LOL I hear ya. As I said 'though, I do feel Kemper listens a whole lot more than some give it credit for.


    Quote from benifin

    Rant over .....


    Oh no, already? :D


    Hey man, I'm sure we all understand your frustrations, if that helps at all, Ben. Now, off to recover from the two-pronged, dual-Ben "assault". :D


    Only kidding of course. I love all Kemperites by default, and don't take criticisms of the unit personally; my passion for fairness in all things can see my coming across as one who's feathers have become ruffled when in fact I don't even have any - only fur. This analogy is perfect IMHO, 'cause anger is not something I've allowed myself to experience - if you haven't any feathers...

    Quote from Gary_W

    When there is a dance floor full of people and the keys player is glaring at you because he's ready to go and you're not? That's when a minute seems like an awfully long time......


    If the drummer has an acoustic kit and breaks a head, it's a lot longer than a minute to get that fixed.
    I don't know of any drummers on the weekend warrior level who keep a spare kit off stage.
    I do know our key player will take at least a minute or more just to reboot his arsenal of keyboards.
    A good band is going to have the other members take up the slack (keep the groove going) until the problem is solved.


    I saw Al DiMeola on his most recent tour and he stopped the show (and we waited) for a whole hour because his FUCHS amp was acting up. That Kemper-minute doesn't seem so long now.

    The key to everything is patience.
    You get the chicken by hatching the egg, not by smashing it.
    -- Arnold H. Glasow


    If it doesn't produce results, don't do it.

    -- Me

    Like 5

    One thing I notice every time these kind of discussion appears, "Why don't they: fix the boot time / make an editor / give us better delays / reverbs / dirt pedals ....", is the lack of understanding how a company is forced to manage resources and priorities.


    Of course Kemper could make a Software Editor, but then they might have to postpone any other development for 12-18 months. Or redesign the boot-up architecture might take 3-6 months and You have to put something else on the backburner, the delays for instance. And the KPA might boot in 30 seconds less... is it worth it?


    I get the feeling that some people don't understand that there are a lot of work behind each and every feature Kemper is doing and the tricky part of managing a big development project like this putting Your resources were they will bring most bang for the buck to the most users (and not just those who are most vocal on the internet) AND make sense for the platform in the future.


    <sorry for the rant>

    Quote from Janne


    Or redesign the boot-up architecture might take 3-6 months and You have to put something else on the backburner, the delays for instance. And the KPA might boot in 30 seconds less... is it worth it?


    Well, if it is designed well from the beginning, there is nothing to redesign ;)

    Quote from Janne

    One thing I notice every time these kind of discussion appears, "Why don't they: fix the boot time / make an editor / give us better delays / reverbs / dirt pedals ....", is the lack of understanding how a company is forced to manage resources and priorities.Of course Kemper could make a Software Editor, but then they might have to postpone any other development for 12-18 months. Or redesign the boot-up architecture might take 3-6 months and You have to put something else on the backburner, the delays for instance. And the KPA might boot in 30 seconds less... is it worth it?I get the feeling that some people don't understand that there are a lot of work behind each and every feature Kemper is doing and the tricky part of managing a big development project like this putting Your resources were they will bring most bang for the buck to the most users (and not just those who are most vocal on the internet) AND make sense for the platform in the future. <sorry for the rant>


    That's a rant? Mate, I admire your succinctness!


    Seriously 'though, I totally agree, Janne.


    As I said in my previous posts, it's logical to assume the K-Team™ is fully aware of these ongoing requests; IMHO it'd be absurd to come to any other conclusion. It is logical to assume, therefore, that said team is doing all it can within the constraints imposed by hardware, budget and workable man-hours to address the situation.


    Also, as I've said before, no amount of repletion / whining / venting - call it what you want, is going to have any effect upon delivery times, IMHO. I could be wrong, but I, as I think you are, am just trying to "keep it real".


    Sure, these guys are Gods to some of us, but as much as I hate to admit it, they are, after all, human. ;(


    Quote from vablows

    Monkey Man, I give it to you, those were the 2 longest posts I have ever seen on my time here on the for.
    Very thorough!


    Thanks brother. Actually, by comparison that split post pales against some others I've made, mainly because of all the quoting. I've spent many hours on posts that were practically all my own "material" (God help us!) and that were in fact longer. Luckily for you, you appear to have managed to skilfully or luckily avoid said barrages. :D


    IMHO, I wasn't really thorough enough; I had a lot more to say, but in light of the fact that I was pressed for time and am a slow typist, and had previously decided that I wasn't going to respond anyway, I had to curtail my enthusiasm somewhat.


    For me, this is all about managing expectations from a position of semi-ignorance - as I said, there's much about the internal workings of the Kemper that we don't know. In fact, I hesitate to argue that there's conceivably more that we don't know than otherwise, but either way, declaring that things should be this way or that from said position seems a tad unfair to me, so I "took one for the Team™", so to speak. I dread the ramifications of the engagement, TBH, 'cause, as I said earlier, I really couldn't care less about the boot time; I merely attempted to placate others' seemingly-passionate disappointment and, as I've just said, help manage expectations in this area.


    Bottom line is, one way or another, boot time will shorten over time, there can be no doubt. The only question is as to how much of the progress will be made on the current hardware, IMHO.


    Thanks for the kind words, vablows!

    Quote from HCarlH

    I saw Al DiMeola on his most recent tour and he stopped the show (and we waited) for a whole hour because his FUCHS amp was acting up. That Kemper-minute doesn't seem so long now.


    This has reminded me one of the shows that I've been to, where Napalm Death guitarist started to have bad switch on his Mesa Rectifier amp. Out of sudden the sound started to disappear/pause. After few songs the standby switch has died. I'm not sure but they must have borrowed an amp from another band to continue. For sure it lasted more than one minute - disconnect old amp, take it out, bring the new amp, connect it, switch it on, warm the tubes, set the EQ...

    Quote from pamplemousse

    couldn't agree more with Maurizio. when I used to be in a band, we rehearsed mini side shows in case one of us needs either to change a string or else. usually they were very funny and always appreciated by the audience


    100% agree here! when unexpected break happens it takes a good frontman to amuse the audience ;)

    ... and there's always the strategy, which many here employ, of popping a cheap modelling floorboard into the setup just in case.


    It'd take less than a minute to fire that up and switch the cables, IMHO.


    If money were no object, I'd obviously go for a standby Kemper and have it ready and waiting, fully booted, for a quick cable-switch.

    I think one way to avoid these kinds of concerns is to have the Kemper warmed up and ready to go before your set, if this is possible without the device being stolen.


    If it's not possible to leave it on stage turned on, it's not that difficult and actually prudent to have all your cabling and other requirements laid out so that by the time you finish hooking everything up, your Kemper has finished booting up.


    Think about it: it's probably all the other stuff you have to do when setting up, rather than just the act of the Kemper booting, that makes getting started a race. After all, who in the world is able to set up in just a minute?


    Of course, it also bears mention that in case you are in a venue with dodgy power, it makes ample sense to carry along a UPS. It is another piece of gear, but will spare you those angry stares.


    Other things to do to reduce boot up time is restrict the number of rigs on a profiler you're using at a gig to the bare minimum. This will speed up the process.


    So what? I don't understand the whine on this one. If you don't have to reboot mid song it's not a problem at all. A valve amp takes longer to warm up properly, so you do same, turn it on while you wait plug in your leads, get your mike stand set, drink beer, argue about set list, insult drummer and bass player, drink more beer etc ....