Click-Track/Count In for live

Good discussions here. No place for dogmatic views I'd say as there are certainly many ways to a great performance... and that's what matters, right?

Quote from lbieber

I think it is a mistake to think the drummer is the time keeper. Everyone is the time keeper. All good music has a common pulse that every musician must feel and play.

I like this view because it emphasizes the "team approach" every band should have. No performance will benefit from fighting or competing musicians...

Nevertheless in my experience it is good to have an agreement who "in case of confusion" takes the lead and the responsibility to keep things in shape and/or push or pull the band to where the right tempo is. I like this to be the drummer as for him or her it is easiest to adjust the band's timing. If I do this via guitar there's not much chance I get it sorted and everybody will follow. By the way: My drummer likes it to be in charge for the tempo. So the negotiation / agreement is implicitly done. But good to have it that way and not play with assumptions who'd be doing it.

Finally for the OP: I don't think it is a pro vs. hobby topic. Some music suffers more from bad tempo than other. Many musicians tend to be "too fast" when gigging in front of an excited audience. So why not tackle it? Many ways to adjust this, many have been mentioned above, lots of good ones. My drummer definitely uses a click and let's me know the count in (pretty inaudible and invisible) in case I start the song. Programming a clever delay with the Kemper and kicking one tone, then listening to the delays might be a good way as well...

There’s a great many excellent ideas, suggestions and thoughts included in the contributions of everyone in this thread.

Of course, different performers will have varying line ups of musicians, thus particular solutions will suit differing musical situations, more than others.

It’s not uncommon for a musical piece to gather a little pace as it goes along, such as that which highly experienced, sensitive musicians would readily pick up on.

But that shouldn’t ever be a forgone conclusion we expect, nor should it be a great matter of heart rendering soul searching, if it happens. It is simply, a common occurrence.

Using a metronome prior to a performance seems a perfect solution, and I would never argue with someone, who felt it to be exactly that.

However, for the “leader” in the full glare of the audience’s gaze, that can pose difficulties, even embarrassment. Perhaps you will forgive an analogy.

My hobby is photography, and any photographer who is preoccupied with technical details, setting up the shot, will find their waiting subjects interest, mood and demeanour, waning tremendously.

Much better to have the background, lighting and props set up ready, the camera in position on a strong tripod, focussed and incident light metering taken from the posing position. Wheel them in, place them and talk to them in a manner that enlivens and animates, opening them up. Then simply press the button, without even needing to look through the camera, to capture their personality and expression.

The idea that entertaining performers should be preoccupied with technical matters on a live stage is simply somewhere (I at least), feel they shouldn’t ever be going.

Furthermore, as stated above, in less technologically eras, it was common place for music to pick up a tiny bit of pace, and almost natural for it to do so. Thus, to my ears, when a click-track or metronome is fed to live musicians, (to me), the effect appears to be something rather mechanical, as opposed to musical.

Someone earlier used word “breathing”. I rather like that word, as in almost all genres of music, there are places in songs where its musicality is enhanced by subtle relaxing and pacing of tempo. Similarly, music is tremendously improved by the subtle relaxing and augmentation of its overall dynamic. Something grossly missing from too many recording these days. Arranger Nelson Riddle, would identify the emotional peaks in a piece of music, and work from peak to peak, building the arrangement to emotional climaxes.

If that sounds formulaic, think about music that start with a musical peak, when it does relax a tiny bit, the audience’s soul and ears will welcome it.

What I’m really writing is that subtle (as well as dramatic) adjustments in tempo as well as dynamics are living features of all the greatest music ever recorded.

These might simply be tweaks in between verses and choruses at the most basic level, but they exist to tremendously benefit the emotional impact of a song; drawing the audience into its meaning, powerfully moving them and with verve and aplomb, thrusting them into a memorably heightened, scintillating, musical experience.

Mechanical music might be fine now and then, but it does have its limits.

George, (an old pal) had a renowned drummer in his studio he had to record. There was banter about how good the drummers timing was.

As an audio designer, with lots of test gear, George set up some equipment that would enable him to test the accuracy of the drummers timing across the complete take, of a recorded song.

From start to finish across the entire piece, the drummer, (sadly no longer with us), was proven to have erred in timing by precisely 1 millisecond. In one sense the musician was incredibly admired by me for his incredible accuracy.

But in another sense, if I felt that if everything he played was that “tight”, it left little room indeed for some of the most beautifying and enhancing aspects of musical presentation. Again, although a truism, it depends on the singular music and the ensemble presenting it.

I have been extremely fortunate in my life to have never actually worked with a bad drummer.

Befriending, being taught by and working with many truly excellent drummers and percussionists over the years.

The most notable of which was James Blades who worked with Charlie Chaplin at the advent of “talkies”, Winston Churchill, performing music to announcing radio broadcasts and speeches and “Uncle Arthur”, playing the gong to introduce films made by the Rank Organisation. (The huge on-screen gong was actually made of cardboard).

The idea that the drummer keeps time was also dispelled to me by session bassist Carol Kaye, from whom I received tutoring, when I wished to write better bass parts as a musical arranger and orchestrator, as over time, the instrument became dominant in musical recordings.

She had a problem with timing at one point in her life. Purchased a large electronic box which was a highly specialised metronome and devoted herself to perfecting an unerring sense of timing, working at that with the typically obsessive dedication she is known for.

After some time, she developed a heightened sense of timing (something I have found particular session musicians possess over many very good musicians) and from that point, set timing, from which drummers would take their cue. Rather than the other way round.

If that seems a revolutionary concept to you, I must admit it was to me, at the time.

I think of it like this.

A drummer does not play a musical instrument.

They actually play upward of at least 10 instruments, simultaneously.

Utilising hands and feet in complex patterns of coordination, and keeping in time, despite needing to continually move between these instruments.

What is more, great drummers have a tremendous sense of internal balance, they can strike these variously resonating instruments, blending them together with just the right dynamic .

Many people, (I read) have difficulty recording amateur drummers, as certain instruments in the kit stand out far too much, ruining the recording. The real problem there, is the drummers lack of internalised balance all widely experienced drummers develop.

In contrast.

A bassist has only one instrument to deal with and play in time.

It does require a kind of revolution in thought, and of course the bassist has to truly be up to snuff with the task. But if one thinks the above through, it does make sense.

The elephant in the room in regard to metronomes.

Is the idea that what appears to be the perfect tempo, performing in your bedroom or rehearsal room.

Will, when stood performing in a much larger building, or a good concert hall, remain the ideal correct tempo for the acoustical properties, innate to the new circumstance.

In American musical notation, composers use a Tempo Mark indicating a quarter note at “X” beats Per Minute. In Europe, Italian phrases indicate the emotional sensibility, mood and style required.

If one examines a metronome of high quality. On one side it will typically indicate Beats Per Minute. Whilst adjacently, simultaneously indicating the Italian Phrases associated with those Beats Per Minute.

The salient point being, that for any given Italian phrase, there will be an entire range of utterly correct tempos, that can be readily utilised for music intended by the composers indications, conveying the desired emotional expression.

In short, the acoustical properties of the concert hall and the size and placement of the audience, will impact and dictate the best tempo for the music to be performed at, in that singular room and situation.

Not to take such matters into account can only diminish the effectiveness and impact of one’s music, on that audience in that place.

In the worst cases, it can make words incomprehensible, and fast musical passages, indistinctive, blurred and confusing.

Familiarity with the music to be performed, breeds confidence in achieving an impressive rendition.

Part of that is a heightened sensitivity imprinting in one’s memory the pace of tempo.

As earlier outlined, that should be clearly communicated.

Long before the sounding of the first note.

A great mentor to me, once explained that if one listed all the various individual aspects and qualities in music, required to perform the piece absolutely perfectly.

When all those differing elements are present and in perfect symmetry and balance with each other, that an additional quality is added to the musical performance.

Although he was a highly respected, learned man, he knew of no word in the vocabulary which actually conveyed what he was attempting to explain. So, he called titled extra quality “Impressiveness”.

This is a quality that I believe we all should seek.

It is not a singular element of performance, but is the effect encountered, when the sum total of every aspect of a piece of music is properly rendered.

With the greatest respect to the original poster and all those struggling with particular aspects of performance, I would have thought, that nailing the tempo, should be fundamental to every performance.

However one achieves it.

Well, there is one more solution that could be taken from the world of chess ...

The main key (of course) is to have talented musicians and lots of practice. You never even think of timing when you have it down.

Quote from lbieber

I think it is a mistake to think the drummer is the time keeper. Everyone is the time keeper. All good music has a common pulse that every musician must feel and play. Labelling someone the time keeper somehow lessens the responsibility of keeping time. Everyone must keep time and share a common pulse.

Just because they are responsible for keeping time doesn't mean everyone else isn't involved. He can only set/maintain the tempo, he can't make everyone follow it.

Is the drummer responsible for the guitar solo? No but of course he is part of it. It about who drives and takes the lead. He is like the conductor of the orchestra.

No one is suggesting it absolves anyone in the band for either following that tempo or blaming the drummer if its wrong.

So, I guess it depends on how we choose to define time keeping. And it seems there is a distinction between time keeping and tempo setting. Everyone is responsible for time keeping, IMO. I haven't been involved with any band that assigned the drummer as the tempo setter. In my experience, the tempo is set by whoever is most capable of getting it right. That's not always the drummer.

The drummer guitar solo comment seems odd to me. In your analogy, it seems the drummer should responsible and the conductor shouldn't be needed to set time.

Quote from lbieber

So, I guess it depends on how we choose to define time keeping. And it seems there is a distinction between time keeping and tempo setting. Everyone is responsible for time keeping, IMO. I haven't been involved with any band that assigned the drummer as the tempo setter. In my experience, the tempo is set by whoever is most capable of getting it right. That's not always the drummer.

The drummer guitar solo comment seems odd to me. In your analogy, it seems the drummer should responsible and the conductor shouldn't be needed to set time.

Every really good drummer I've played with is the tempo setter. They use their sticks to count us in and often have a metronome.

Every not so good drummer makes me have to think about the tempo and be the one to adjust it. I spend the whole show doing that and it impacts my guitar playing, singing, and dancing. Not to mention the over-playing and lack of dynamics.

In the video, he mentions to record yourself and play it back so you can hear any mistakes that need improving. I was given this advice very early on in my practice, and it is probably the best advice anyone can give.

here is miles davis solution for the count in :

Quote from lbieber

So, I guess it depends on how we choose to define time keeping. And it seems there is a distinction between time keeping and tempo setting. Everyone is responsible for time keeping, IMO. I haven't been involved with any band that assigned the drummer as the tempo setter. In my experience, the tempo is set by whoever is most capable of getting it right. That's not always the drummer.

The drummer guitar solo comment seems odd to me. In your analogy, it seems the drummer should responsible and the conductor shouldn't be needed to set time.

This is of course only my view :), but the way I see it:

Tempo setter is the individual who starts the tempo. In most cases ( but of course many exceptions to thus) , this tempo remains the same through out.

Once the tempo is set then it needs to be maintained. To me you can't have everyone in the band leading...I think its this speed, no I think its this...so ultimately someone needs to lead the time keeping else it will fall apart.

Take my example of gudbye T'jane, attached is the orginal and a crazy fast live version.

Original

(7) Slade - Gudbuy T'Jane • TopPop - YouTube

Live - mad fast!!!

(7) Slade - Gudbuy T'Jane - YouTube

My view is that on the live version, the drummer set off at a blistering pace and the band kept up. You could say they planned it and agreed at the outset to play at that pace but I suspect ( I don't factually know) that its not that well planned. Most importantly, the rest of the band don't have a choice to play it slower, they have to keep up.

So yes I contend that the drummer is the time keeper but of course everyone else has to lock in. They are leading the rhythm section, hence why its called a rhythm instrument.

With the regards to guitar solo, sorry I mixed 2 things there. What I'm saying is that even through a solo which is focussed on one instrument is that everyone still has a part to play - the drummer keeps the time for the guitarist to play around. He therefore acts like a conductor would in an orchestra. Where there is a conductor, the drummer is no longer the tempo setter or for time keeping, that would be the conductor.

So a better way for me to explain it is I see the drummer as the conductor in the absence of one. Hope that makes more sense.

In reality this is just my excuse to play this great track by Slade

Quote from Crispy Panther

Quote: “i would like to put a click track on my ears so i play at the correct tempo when i start a song by myself. The problem is that sometimes I start a song too slow or too fast depending on how I'm feeling that day.”

With respect, if would appear that you have no compellingly needful requirement for MIDI controlled tempo establishment.

Such as supportive backing tracks added by technicians at specific points synchronising with live performance, for impressive augmentation.

It also appears that you personally lack genuine confidence in your innate ability to establish the correct tempo, for each and every song performance.

As £160 is too great cost for you to outlay, to provide a technical solution.

Referencing a cheap metronome affording a visual indication or a vibrating indication are two methods you could adopt.

If you are fronting a band, the draw back with the former is that to the audience, a lack of professionalism, will become clearly apparent.

With the latter, your diverted attention and preoccupation with continuing necessary technical adjustments, will have on them a similar effect to watching paint dry.

Thus, handing the responsibility to a reliable drummer who can be equipped with a low-cost metronome to establish timing for the introduction of each song, would appear to be by far the easiest solution.

However, establishing timing is something which I am very familiar with in live performance.

As I have worked primarily as a Musical Director conducting large ensembles of singers and musicians.

Responsible for 150 individuals, plus technical staff in the productions. Which has involved recording live albums in prestigious concert halls.

Thus, establishing the tempo, not only in my own mind, but also in everyone else’s involved in the production, has been a very important part in the role, it is necessary for me to play.

To that end, thoroughly rehearsing that role, until the correct tempo becomes an innate part of ones being, is an essential discipline to cultivate.

Moreover, a methodical plan is necessary to clearly communicate that tempo, in an easy-to-understand manner, to everyone else involved singing or playing, each specific piece of music.

How does one do that?

Please appreciate that any slap dash methodology is neither good enough in my typical situation, or indeed, in any other.

It involves practice, discipline and repeated rehearsal till “ideal tempo” become an automatic association in the mind, imprinted with the memory of the music itself.

Until, tempo is no longer something one “counts” but something one “feels” inside as a part of one’s actual being. It is no less than a complete internalisation of the tempo, ultimately to be externally be heard.

To that end, when one piece finishes and some might be taking a bow, I will be actively engrossed in mentally establishing the tempo for the next piece in my own mind, and extremely discretely communicating that simultaneously to all the singers and musicians.

During rehearsals I will have explained my methods to those involved, and described my discrete method of indicating the tempo of the next piece to them. That during times of applause, thy should take very careful note and using the indications to already establish in their own minds, the tempo for the next piece.

I describe what we are up to like this...

Imagine they are in a huge airport, its so big, they have mechanical walk ways to aid movement.

They are walking along the moving walkway themselves, at a continuous, set pace. Carried along and moving with it, quite effortlessly, as one.

Finally, they will step off the moving walkway conveying them along and continue to move along the motionless ground, at an exact pace they have already, clearly established.

I will typically give two bars of discrete, but clearly conducted introduction, prior to the start of the piece. However, the first note of music performed, is by analogy, the singers and musicians first step off the moving walkway conveying them along (the discrete tempo indications).

Therefore, the first music the audience will hear, is not the onset of a tempo that is beginning to be established. Rather, it is the entirely natural continuation of a set tempo that has been seen, felt and understood for a much more considerable time that anyone in the audience could possibly ever be aware of.

In the singers and musician’s hearts, minds and souls, they have been walking along that moving conveyor for while by now, and the sounding of the first notes of music the audience perceives, is simply their first step off that conveyor, continuing to walk at the steady pace they are already, completely familiar, and at wholly at one with.

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This is great and speaks to my point as a rock/pop/funk/blues/reggae/soca player. There should be a single person accountable for the "conveyor belt".

If I'm doing acoustic songs I'm typically the conductor and any percussion follows me.

Anyone else use the remote tap tempo light as a way to get the tempo for live count in? I just got a remote and realized that I can program the tempo for each song and use the LED to get the rhythm visually. This is not totally reliable as the LED blink is not 100% consistent. If the remote is organized by performance as songs you get the benefit of the LED blinking at the set tempo.

The tap tempo light isn't (and never has been) accurate to the programmed tempo.

Quote from Ruefus

The tap tempo light isn't (and never has been) accurate to the programmed tempo.

Good to know that you have verified it is not accurate.

I have not measured it, but it generally changes with the temp setting. As I mentioned, it does not blink 100% reliably, but it seems generally close to the correct tempo if you ignore the glitchy behavior. If the tempo is too fast then all bets are off for sure - will appear as solidly on. I'll have to look at it more closely, but it seems reasonably close for the tempos that I have observed - in the range of 60 to 140 bpm.

I'll report back after I look more closely at it.

Edit:

Looked a bit more closely at the LED behavior. It is actually not that far off for tempos below about 100bpm, although it does glitch out of time intermittently. My brain can filter the glitches out and I can find the right tempo using the LED at these lower tempos. Anything above 100 and it looks like garbage. Too bad Kemper has not resolved this as it would be a nice feature that is essentially already there. Seems like low hanging fruit for the software development team.

This may not be exactly relevant but for anyone who has kicked around using a click but wondered if it’s worth the effort, I’ll say this. Ive always scoffed about clicks. After all, I was born, raised and still live in Muscle Shoals. Music is like breathing here. “I don’t need no stinking click”. It was never an issue with bands where we were playing small stages but now, on a wide worship stage, with strings, brass on one side, piano, organ and synth on the other, drums, bass, acoustic and me in the middle and choir behind, we have to be on click to keep us all tight. I actually find it quite liberating. The music can breathe within the confines of KNOWING we’re locked. It’s helped immensely with my timing when there’s not a click. We use Planning Center on an iPhone if anyone is interested. Each song has tempo set and our pianist controls it. We all have IEM’s and each have our own mix by way of Avioms. I feel spoiled compared to some of the dives I played in “back in the day” ha ha.