All I can say is that I am OCD about my sound, about my tuning, about any kind of latency etc......and I noticed no latency on my switch from tube amps to the Kemper....
Latency and current firmware
- Karl_Houseknecht
- Closed
- Thread is marked as Resolved.
-
-
I use the KPA live with IEM's and through my pro tools HD system in the studio and I can not detect any latency either way
-
Signal chain was: Guitar -> KPA -> Near field monitors. Nothing else. No computer, no audio interface, no DAW.
What part of that signal chain would most likely introduce the latency I was hearing? Also, if the KPA can't be causing my latency problems, how do some profiles contribute more to it than others?
If a profile is done with a closed up mike-setting, it will have less latency than a profile done with mikes standing more far away from the speakers. If effects, digital eq's, channelstrips ect. are used while profiling, they also can increase latency. The KPA-effects can also increase latency, in the end all digital devices (KPA, Ace-FX, POD ect.) are computers in a box.
If you play the KPA straight into your nearfield monitors, the latency shouldn't be more than 2 / 3ms and that's really low. I'm a session-player and VERY sensitive with latencies and I never had problems with the KPA. But I hardly use the KPA-effects, because I prefer plugins or my pedals (Strymon Timeline + Mobius, Mad Professor pedals, Cry Baby and Fulltone Wah ect.).
Not to forget: guitars can play a role, too, the response of my '58 strat (maple neck) is much faster than f.e. my -really good- Gibson Les Paul Goldtop ('73 ).
-
If a profile is done with a closed up mike-setting, it will have less latency than a profile done with mikes standing more far away from the speakers. If effects, digital eq's, channelstrips ect. are used while profiling, they also can increase latency.
No. Just no.
So, the profiling process doesn't account for latency? Weird.
Ignore him.
-
If a profile is done with a closed up mike-setting, it will have less latency than a profile done with mikes standing more far away from the speakers. If effects, digital eq's, channelstrips ect. are used while profiling, they also can increase latency.
I think, this is not true. Profiling algorithm is smart enough to compensate for the delay which occurs in profiling loop.
I profiled some VSTs which did have significant amount of latency (15ms+) and when I played them in KPA, there was no noticeable latency. -
I think, this is not true. Profiling algorithm is smart enough to compensate for the delay which occurs in profiling loop.
I profiled some VSTs which did have significant amount of latency (15ms+) and when I played them in KPA, there was no noticeable latency.Are you're sure? I don't think that profiling will compensate everything, but maybe CK can clarify that, he invented the KPA.
Anyway, adding KPA-effects can increase latency, I'm quite sure about that. But like I said I never had problems with the KPA's latency and the profiles I'm using.
-
Are you're sure? I don't think that profiling will compensate everything, but maybe CK can clarify that, he invented the KPA.
Yes a short note from CK would be helpful and we would be 100% sure. In my opinion it should compensate all the delay present in profiling loop. Anyway, this can be easily measured. If I will find some free time I could make the measurement.Anyway, adding KPA-effects can increase latency, I'm quite sure about that.
This is true, but it heavily depends on type of fx. With most used fx - delay & reverb you should notice no additional latency, because you are mixing dry + wet signals. Dry signal has 0 latency.
On the other side, with effect based on pitch shifter, you will notice latency, because it requires more data on the input (larger buffer) to compute the output. But KPA's pitch shifting effects are IMHO very good in sound and also speed.
Again, this can also be measured. -
I am using the KPA with active CLR Wedge an also through my audio I/O with direct monitoring. No latency issue ever discovered....I usually run a 32 bit buffer size for recording at 48kHz...as for my personal latency tolerance I have to say that I have none! I do a lot of session work etc and if i detect the slightest latency or timing issue I get very irritated...I play/ record 100% live in complete takes and avoid nudging to the grid at all cost!
There must be a different reason or perception issue to your problem.
-
Yes, the Profiler compensates for latency in a far-mic'ed scenario. It's in the wiKPA as well.
The whole latency issue is somehow misleading when it comes to profiling tho. It would make sense if we were recording something, but all the Profiler is making with the input signal when taking a profile is to analyze the nature of the sound: it's not actually recording or sampling it. The Profiler simply waits for the sound to come, and then analyzes it.
-
Not to sound dense, but how do I do that?
See my previous post (to the one quoted). Literally just raise the compression in the amp block a little, or add a compressor (or even green scream) in front, you will end up with the same liquidy feel (and even sound) as other amp sims.The Kemper provides a less compressed more true signal by default, which is part of what separates its sound from the rest, but the payoff is that unless you raise the volume on your speakers a bunch this feels harder work and like there's a subtly greater delay between picking the string and hearing the sound. The attack seems softer. By using a guitar style compressor you lower the peaks but make up the volume throughout resulting in the crucial transient being louder and feeling more immediate, reducing the feeling of latency. That's why other amp sims tend to give quite compressed signals by default, they're geared towards playback at lower volumes, the downside to compression is that it starts to make the sound too even which is one of the things that makes amp sims sound digital (although it makes them really easy to play), so that's why the Kemper has much less compression than other sims, it's compression is measured from (and to match) a real signal path, you get to hear and play it side by side, so it has to match, unlike with any other amp sim.
-
Display More
I've said it before, I'll say it again - remember, latency is cumulative, so:
KPA: 5ms (3ms + 2ms A/D/A)
Average FRFR with DSP: 2ms
Average distance from speaker (in my case): 2m = 7ms
Total: 14ms, which is barely acceptable *for me*I certainly wish the latency in the KPA was shorter, but I don't see it happening unless they come up with new hardware. I'll probably take a look at FRFR speakers without DSP again some day, didn't find anything decent by the time I bought my DXR10.
One thing that bothers me is that manufacturers don't consider the A/D - D/A conversion in their latency specs, Kemper included, so I think it's better to come up with a term that conveys the total latency involved. Analog latency? End-to-end latency? I don't know, but I think the way manufacturers disclose it is a bit misleading.
It is a false assumtion that the AD/DA add 2 ms to the equation. What is the source of this number?
Contemporary AD/DA converters like the one in the Profiler add about 0.5 ms to the latency.
Since Spdif interfaces are not latency-free either, the difference between analog and Spdif roundtrip will be 0.3 to 0.4 ms only. -
Reverb, compression, flange, and any number of other efx intentionally add latency into the signal to achieve their results.
Speakers do not move air instantaneously either since they are a mechanical device.
Pre-amp and power tubes in many circuits in tube amps also add latency as do the massive coils in those devices.
I find it impossible to believe that no one has had any latency in their "analog" rigs that was not similar to the Kemper.
The only real good arguement I have ever heard for latency being an issue was with vocals and IEM's with digital mixers. Since you are both creating the sound with your voice and hearing it with your ears (both directly and from the IEM), people can sometimes detect latency of 5-10mSec. Even this becomes meaningless if the person has any verb on their vocal.
With a guitar rig, there are so many mechanical and electrical latencies built into the instrument chain that the Kemper is insignificant in the equation IMHO.
-
does anybody have a pulse generator and an oscilloscope ?
-
Signal chain was: Guitar -> KPA -> Near field monitors. Nothing else. No computer, no audio interface, no DAW.
What part of that signal chain would most likely introduce the latency I was hearing? Also, if the KPA can't be causing my latency problems, how do some profiles contribute more to it than others?
Compare and contrast: I use the Axe and the HDx into my audio interface with direct monitoring enabled. Zero detectable latency.
Maybe you have a short in guitar.
-
It is a false assumtion that the AD/DA add 2 ms to the equation. What is the source of this number?
Contemporary AD/DA converters like the one in the Profiler add about 0.5 ms to the latency.
Since Spdif interfaces are not latency-free either, the difference between analog and Spdif roundtrip will be 0.3 to 0.4 ms only.Apologies, I've quoted a previous post in this thread and didn't remember I once took my own latency measurements from the KPA, which amounted to around 3.5ms. The latency of the DXR10 is 2.2ms if anyone's interested BTW.
-
The more i read about Latency the less i understand! I was doing an experiment yesterday We was playing trough som tunes with my band. I turned off the constant latency. I felt the sound was better and more amp like. cutting trough better! it was not trough PA, only my Yamaha DXR8. Can I disable constant latancy on a gig with PA? or is this a bad idea?
-
Why did you turn constant latency on? It is not for a setup like git - KPA - amp.
-
Why did you turn constant latency on? It is not for a setup like git - KPA - amp.
I think It has bin default since i bought it! I am used to play on simple tube amps A lot of the settings menues i have not touched.. i have only added FX loop and tweaked som EQ, sence and output on the rigs i have made
