RMS auto output rig/performance balancing

    Hi
    After editing some many Rigs today to get them equal in Vol and Loundness
    i think a cool features would be something like a Loudness Scanner for all Rigs in the KPA
    which , when new Set of Rigs is loaded into the KPA, compare all Rigs in Volume and Loudness
    and equals them.
    I think it must be something which is not only scanning the Vol Settings it must scan the Loudness
    of an Rig too, cause sometimes a rig on Vol 0 is much quite than a strong Rig which is maybe set
    at - 3, this means the Power of the Sound must analyzed
    Would be quite nice to get a tool like this
    8o

    yeah right but when i can start from one equal level
    its easier to setup solo or boost
    i have one line from where i can up or down in level
    think its easier even when changing only one sound i one performance
    i didnt have to compare more to the other when i know i need lets say +5 for a
    solo part works for every rig

    It could never work, I think, as although you could theoretically achieve equal power output across rigs, what the human ear perceives as louder/quieter is a different matter (Google search fletcher Munson curve)
    even if this was accounted for, sometimes the output level needs to be adjusted to fit in the mix which is determined by the output and frequency-range of the others instruments. How many times have you played your "favourite" rig/sound along with a band (or even recorded material) and it sounds great and of a "nice" level, yet the following song the same sound doesn't cut through or is too loud? Ulimtately this is why sound engineers will never be out of a job. Further to this, the device you listen to your sounds on and the position of it relative to your ears and, probably most significantly, the "sound" of the room you're in plays a major part of the perceived volume.
    im like you, it would be great if there was a magic button that does all of this but I won't hold my breath.

    Quote from Robman

    This has come up quite a few times on the Forum already


    OUTPUT LEVELLING ...........


    Yup ... for a reason -> it is cool! :D


    Tone generator at the imput + db measurement just before the output ... auto adjustment ot the preset level ... done ... at least this is how i imagine it


    I had the eleven rack once and it has this function, does anybody know how they did it ? ... it wasn't perfect but it was definately a help

    i guess what would be more useful is having a band that "levels" themselves. Sometimes the other players (no finger pointing here) play louder and the "i cant hear myself" wars commence. Conversely, on a large stage it sometimes is the opposite. Plus the time-factor of exposure to certain frequencies for a certain time can affect ones perception of what is an acceptable level.
    On the other end of the spectrum, playing at home and jamming with yourself you have complete control of the situation. But tell me, how often do you feel the need to tweak volume levels in this situation? i know i do, and it depends on what mood i'm in.


    After all said and done, it is nice to have some kind of reference level that all created profiles should aim to adhere to. Browsing through the rig exchange there is such a diverse range of "volumes" from quiet to rip your face off loud. Mostly down to whoever profiles the given rig. Who's ready to set the standard...?

    There's no way to know the output of the guitar used, relative to the Clean Sense setting, and how and what a guitarist will play. A thin pick will have less volume but "compress" more etc. etc. Besides, equal loudness will rarely be right, musically. Unless you play pretty much the same thing on every song :P


    Only way I can set correct level is in the context it will be used. But that's me :thumbup:

    There's already an easy, non-subjective way to measure rig volume - the output LED, which is obviously showing us peak levels. Have the KPA silently run a test signal, pink noise, etc, through *just* the Stack section, with the amp/cab/EQ settings all at their defaults, and then adjust the rig's output to match some predetermined level. It could easily be part of the profiling process, could probably be applied to non-levelled profiles without much fuss, and you can still do your own levelling with the volume knobs if you disagree - a really bassy rig might not sound as loud as one with a lot of mids even though their RMS and stuff match.

    How about an automatic setup for output, that balances performances and/or rig output so they give the impression of the same level out?


    It could maybe work as a refine process in two passes, where you select the rigs or performances you want to match...strum and the Kemper flickers through them every other second or so and adjusts/saves their level to match each other.


    Yes i know it's pretty easy to do by ear, but without playing as loud as a full blown PA, it can sometimes be tricky to match your cleans against gainier stuff!

    That's what LUFS meters are for; psychoacoustic level evaluation the way the human ear hears it. This is the broadcast standard, and while ears change over time, it's nice to know that the meters will be correct. :)

    thats what i meant
    LUFS
    i use these as a broadcast engineer every day, should work for KPA as well
    even if not exactly it will provide a basis from which it is easier to setup
    a whole bunch of rigs in little time, volume wise

    Quote from digbob

    thats what i meant
    LUFS
    i use these as a broadcast engineer every day, should work for KPA as well
    even if not exactly it will provide a basis from which it is easier to setup
    a whole bunch of rigs in little time, volume wise


    I liked the OP now, thanks for the clarification.

    Quote from Bommel

    Tone generator at the imput + db measurement just before the output ... auto adjustment ot the preset level ... done ... at least this is how i imagine it


    I had the eleven rack once and it has this function, does anybody know how they did it ? ... it wasn't perfect but it was definately a help


    The issue I see here is that a guitar signal's envelope is rather different from a sinusoid. A clean tone shows a very high peak level but a low overall energy. For a distorted tone it's the other way around.
    So if equal(ize) the peak values, the clean tone will be way softer than the distorted one; if you equal(ize) the RMS value, the clean's peaks will most likely clip the D\A converter and kill birds in the surroundings.


    I am with Ingolf "Mk I" in this thread :)


    An automation would only make sense at equal compression and distortion amounts IMO.

    I am not sure the RMS equalization would be optimal in all the scenarios. Cleans would have a huge peak...


    OTOH, with peak equalization there would be the opposite issue...

    it has to be made with LUFS Metering,
    which keeps the Dynamics and scans the real Loudness
    of the Programm which is metered
    Its the standard here in Germany for TV and radio Broadcasting