A big profiles theft!

    Quote from Klappy

    to be completely above reproach, a profile vendor would have to remove ALL references to the amplifier companies, including coded ones like Masha and Phender and to present the product as entirely their own without disclosing the tools used to make the product.


    Yeah, and the obvious catch is that unless vendors can at least vaguely refer to the original names, we'd have no clue as to what we're buying, and we'd be screwed.


    That said, I'm still lookin' for that elusive Joe Sixpack's Ultra-mega Cranked-toob MojoBox™ profile. I tried searching Google and the Exchange, but no dice... :D

    Quote from Monkey_Man


    Yeah, and the obvious catch is that unless vendors can at least vaguely refer to the original names, we'd have no clue as to what we're buying, and we'd be screwed.


    I suppose we'd have to listen to demos and judge them on their merits rather than on their brand names. :D

    I hate emojis, but I hate being misunderstood more. :)

    Quote from SpinnerDeluxe

    Would you buy my Roland Micro Cube profiles?!? :D


    Not unless you called them Poland Velcro Tubes or something.


    Then again, Spinner, just call 'em Joe Sixpack's Ultra-mega Cranked-toob MojoBox™ and you'll be my hero.


    Quote from Klappy

    I suppose we'd have to listen to demos and judge them on their merits rather than on their brand names. :D


    Too true, Klappy.


    The vendors would have trouble "cutting through" the noise, 'though.

    Quote from Klappy

    One could make an argument that this phrase applies to a profiler, who capitalizes on the R&D and marketing of amplifier companies, basically selling a knock off product. IMHO, to be completely above reproach, a profile vendor would have to remove ALL references to the amplifier companies, including coded ones like Masha and Phender and to present the product as entirely their own without disclosing the tools used to make the product. After all, aren't most buyers really buying digital knockoffs of the original amps? Sure, the engineering skill is important, but how many profiles would be sold under the name "Joe Schmo crunch combo" and "Someguy Doom Metal Amp"? Instead we ask questions like "who sells the best JCM800" or "is User123's Dual Rectifier worth the money"? Just three threads earlier there was talk about not enough Laney GH50L profiles being available in a sea of 10,000 profiles. Whether it is warranted or not, as players we are very brand/model conscious, and that's how profiles are marketed. Changing the brand/model names to similar names is only satisfying legal concerns and not ethical ones IMHO.


    Just a thought.


    Sure and also one can argue that the amp makers might be happy getting free advertisement every time someone looks at the profiles! We can argue anything and everything but the bottom line is a Commercial profile maker is spending hours making and creating something that enough users are willing to pay money for and without their skills these kind of profiles won't exist as abundantly. Without these professionals commercial profiles as we know them won't exist. Whether you or I think they're great profiles or not is irrelevant as many are finding them very useful and are willing to pay premium dollars for them.


    On the other hand the thief is just a thief, didn't spend anytime or effort and contributed nothing to the existence of this profile (Parasite)


    The moral aspect of this can be made very simple or complicated as we chose. I myself try to make it simple. The way I look at it to simplify it is as follows:


    Do I personally have the right to resell the profiles that I just purchased more than one time to anyone or everyone and make a profit from this resale without a prior a deal with the actual creator of these profiles to share in the profit??


    The answer is obviously No!! If everyone asks themselves the same questions I don't think we'd be discussing the morality of the retailers who are selling in the open. You and I have the choice to buy or not to buy, I will not compare their morality with that of the thief (even thought some of the prices are ridiculously high, I have the choice not to buy)

    Hi all,


    I spoke to one of the profile makers on the phone this evening about the theft and reselling of the profile packs and a possible solution on how to avoid this in the future.


    I think there is a huge problem with selling profiles through the independent platforms (webshops etc). The only way to avoid anything like the theft and reselling of these profile packs is creating one platform like some sort of Appstore. I would love to get in contact with some of the other Profile vendors to see if we could go talk to the Kemper guys as a unity and find a way to solve this properly like they should have done from day one. Please send me a PM when you are interested.


    Thanks!

    Quote from Folreden

    ... talk to the Kemper guys as a unity and find a way to solve this properly like they should have done from day one ...


    I very much doubt that Kemper GmbH will even consider going into this business, even less as a shop host for 3rd party profilers.
    To be honest, in my humble opinion it's not a good idea to make others (like Kemper GmbH) responsible for your own business fortune or failure. Feel free to contact all serious profilers and see if you guys can come up with a joint strategy that helps your business. But from my personal perspective (as someone who has happily spent a lot of bucks, quid, euros on commercial profiles) .... make great profiles, make great demos, have a convincing and professional / creative platform for your products. That's a WAY more inviting, positive and motivating strategy than to contemplate over all kinds of pointless restrictions, locks, protections and hassle for your valuable clients.


    I don't share my commercial profiles and I will NEVER do.
    But I can guarantee you that the day someone comes up with any form of technical limitations or copy protection (hardware or software) I will stop buying profiles entirely. Sell your stuff, be happy about all the praise (and cash) you get for your work. But don't convert into a pain in the a** for your clients. You will regret that step.

    Quote from lightbox


    I very much doubt that Kemper GmbH will even consider going into this business, even less as a shop host for 3rd party profilers.
    To be honest, in my humble opinion it's not a good idea to make others (like Kemper GmbH) responsible for your own business fortune or failure. Feel free to contact all serious profilers and see if you guys can come up with a joint strategy that helps your business. But from my personal perspective (as someone who has happily spent a lot of bucks, quid, euros on commercial profiles) .... make great profiles, make great demos, have a convincing and professional / creative platform for your products. That's a WAY more inviting, positive and motivating strategy than to contemplate over all kinds of pointless restrictions, locks, protections and hassle for your valuable clients.


    I don't share my commercial profiles and I will NEVER do.
    But I can guarantee you that the day someone comes up with any form of technical limitations or copy protection (hardware or software) I will stop buying profiles entirely. Sell your stuff, be happy about all the praise (and cash) you get for your work. But don't convert into a pain in the a** for your clients. You will regret that step.


    Quote from lightbox

    I very much doubt that Kemper GmbH will even consider going into this business



    I understand what you are saying, but I don't think it has be difficult for the users (both ends) to create a platform like this. Besides that, we can all sit at home and argue about what Kemper will do or not, but the only way is open a dialogue and see where it takes us (or not). Maybe there are very workable ideas worth implementing? But the biggest mistake in my opinion is to think that the way it is, is the way it should stay. Software is always worth of evaluating and trying to make it better and that's what i'm trying to do.


    For the record, I don't make any money on profiles and I don't intend to do so. I'm just as much a customer as a lot of us are. From a customers point of view, as well as a IT guy, I can see a lot of room for improvement on a lot of levels in the software and the complete buying process in general...

    Quote from Folreden

    we can all sit at home and argue about what Kemper will do or not, but the only way is open a dialogue and see where it takes us (or not)


    At least one of the mods / coders has stated that the company has no interest in going down this road, Folreden.


    Welcome to the forum if I haven't already said g'day, mate!

    I personally think that Commercial sellers have nothing to worry about. Somehow I believe that the majority of the target market is not in jeopardy.


    There's enough of those who spent the money for the Kemper who aren't going to sweet the dollars if they thought the profile is worth it.I think there are enough of them that will keep this market alive for a while.


    I'm sure there are those who will buy the hot stuff but I also think that this same group won't buy the profiles anyway regardless from the commercial seller unless it's significantly lowered in price. I can't imagine what the percentage is but I believe to enlarge their markets and minimize theft, lowering the price would be the best strategy to get a bigger percentage of Kemper owners. Let's be realistic, 69, 79 or 89 dollar for a pack or 15 dollars for one profile is prohibitive for many Kemper owners to pay, and those shouldn't even be considered as potential customers.

    Quote from Dean_R

    lowering the price would be the best strategy to get a bigger percentage of Kemper owners. Let's be realistic, 69, 79 or 89 dollar for a pack or 15 dollars for one profile is prohibitive for many Kemper owners to pay


    I think we've both said this a few times, Dean, and I can't see my POV on this changing any time soon... or ever.

    It is a little off topic, but to me one problem is that a lot of commercial profiles may not suit to our tastes, and the problem is that a lot of buyers may be often upset after purchasing.


    In rig manager, it is possible to 'playback" a profile without installing it on the Kemper. The ideal would be to be able to playback a commercial profile before purchasing via rig manager but only for a very short time (20 seconds for instance, then the sound shuts down). To me, 20 seconds is enough to test a profiles and see if it fits to my needs...


    It will not solve the theft, but for the future purchasers, it would be an insurance that they buy something they really like.

    Nice idea Dje, , that would be great to test before buying even for 30 sec.


    I Think I'm almost the single commercial profiler putting some actual commercial rigs on the rig exchange , in order for potential client to test them. I did this for my latest pack this week and the older ones. Why don't commercial sellers do this ? I feel it's a bit insecure to have some nasty ones or concurrent seller tag it with a one star rating, but I think my profiles are very good anyway and each user can make it's own opinion, I took the risk.


    I also chose a low and 'open price' where customers can set their own price, so even the broke musician can buy it with the lowest rate available (the minimum price I set) , but so far almost every customer bought it at the lowest price available, most won't want to pay more. I guess a price of less than 10€ / 10£ or 10$ for a pack of profiles is psychologically OK for most users and may allow a profiler to avoid piracy issues.

    As for the Kemper company, my opinion is that rather them putting time, resources and manpower into a project that decreases (the pretty low amount of) piracy, they should keep developing the product (which they do in a fantastic manner). Involving the company to find solutions for a very minor problem is a waste of time.

    Quote from ChristopheSeyler

    What about rig pack from TopJimi, The Amp Factory and many more ?
    What about sinmix and his free MRP, Reampzone,...


    don't get me wrong I know how generous these chaps are, but even rig packs and downloadable content is much more of a hassle to test than a simple rig exchange in preview mode from the rig manager, which is the purpose of the rig exchange btw : simple , elegant and straight solution

    Quote from KoMa

    As for the Kemper company, my opinion is that rather them putting time, resources and manpower into a project that decreases (the pretty low amount of) piracy, they should keep developing the product (which they do in a fantastic manner). Involving the company to find solutions for a very minor problem is a waste of time.


    I don't want to be a cynic here but if you truly think about it, it's most definitely in the interest of Kemper as a company to have every profile available for free, so I doubt they would get involved in this.

    Quote from KoMa

    As for the Kemper company, my opinion is that rather them putting time, resources and manpower into a project that decreases (the pretty low amount of) piracy, they should keep developing the product (which they do in a fantastic manner). Involving the…


    This.


    My opinion on that is the following:


    As was previously stated by a few people, the business of commercial profiles is clearly not what Kemper was designed for. Commercial profilers used the device and thought "well, given my access to all the gear I have I might make a few $$ out of this" and that is all well and good both for profilers who earn money, Kemper as a company (because the better profiles are, the more people would buy it) and end users as myself (as I absolutely enjoy commercial profiles I bought). It was only the matter of time when the commercial profiles will become available for download for free or resale - it happens to ALL software. Copyright protection takes HUGE budgets even in the cases of software giants such as Adobe, Microsoft etc. Making some copyright protection on a restricted budget would most definitely make life more complicated for 99,9% of honest buyers, but will not stop 0,1% of 'pirates' anyway. Any effort in doing that is counter-productive for Kemper and effectively is a waste of both time and money.


    I see the disappointment the commercial profilers have about the theft, and there are some brilliant ideas in this topic, but in software industry it just does not work this way. And I am sure that the percentage of 'pirates' in the Kemper community is miniscule.


    Moreover, I live in Ukraine and read a couple of Russian guitar forums on a regular basis. Do you know how people buy profiles there? They make a group of ~50 people, pay 1$ each and buy a bundle for a group. If there was an effective copyright protection, I am 99% sure no one of them would buy anything at all. So that is controversial.


    Money rules the world. That was the titel track from our first album back in 1999........