To Keep or not to Keep .... * RESOLVED *

    Hi,


    After a few weeks of testing and getting a feel for the KPA I'm left sitting on the fence as to whether to keep it or not. The main issues I'm struggling with are inter-related. That being the S/PDIF limitations and latency. I'm one of those people who is very sensitive to latency when playing solos due to the style of music I tend to play, along with my playing style and what I'm used to hearing when recording. Latency never crossed my mind when purchasing the KPA. I understandably assumed it had full S/PDIF capability and the performance would be at least as good as my ancient modelers. However, the last few days left me frustrated until I figured out what was happening. Then followed many hours of research on the forum and more testing. If my tests are correct the KPA is roughly 2.5x the latency of the older POD bean. This is mind boggling to me. Along with the S/PDIF limitations. The irony to all this is that the latency is reduced by a helpful amount when running S/PDIF - but S/PDIF is only supported under a restrictive set of circumstances.


    I would hate to keep the KPA with the current limitations only to find out shortly thereafter that a KPA 2.0 is being released that "fixes" the issues at hand. Does anybody have any idea what the chances are of S/PDIF or latency improvements, or a KPA 2.0 on the horizon?


    It's not a matter of IF I will own a KPA, rather only a question of when....


    Sonic



    **** UPDATE ****


    Jump to thread #116 on page 6 if you wish to hear the resolution, it was not primarily due to latency. It was a niche situation unique to my DAW and interface.

    Sonic, make sure Constant Latency is turned off. The feature renders all Rigs' latency to be around 4.5ms IIRC, which is the maximum any Rig could induce under normal circumstances (with the feature turned off - each Rig causes latency according to its unique complexity). This standardisation is an option in order to cater for reamping situations where one might be reamping, say, a single DI track multiple times through different Profiles and playing them back side-by-side, meaning that they'd be in-phase.


    By switching the feature off, you'll allow the Kemper to render each Rig on its CPU-demand merits. This way, you should get down to 1 or 2 ms, and if you feel it's more, could try switching non-critical-to-recording stomps off too.


    I can tell you that nobody has issues with latency once the feature is switched off unless he or she chooses to engage pitch-changing effects, which stands to reason.


    I can also tell you that having owned all the PODs since v1.0, including the bass ones, the Kemper has the most-immediate feel of the lot. I even pressed L6 about its projected-latency figures for the Helix for a dozen pages based upon my issue with the HD500, which literally felt spongey to me. Kemper solved all this, so I'm frankly amazed you should have an issue with it, which is why I asked you to check the Constant-Latency thing.


    Fingers crossed here...

    Thanks MM.


    In my research I learned about the constant latency and already made sure it is off. Seriously, this is frustrating. This is no psychological thing either because when I stumbled across this, latency was not even on my radar. I spent the vast majority of the time over the last few weeks learning the KPA, testing and tweaking, etc. Focusing exclusively on rhythm. But in the last few days as I wrapped up most of my testing and had profiled and dialed in tones I thought were workable, I began playing solos. And it didn't take long for me to realize something was off. You may recall me mentioning a ways back that I found the analog outs seemed to compress the attack on solos. Well, turns out it wasn't compressing the attack, rather it was latency. The note is not there when I expect it to be. S/PDIF helps it a good deal, but even then it's borderline. I had completely forgotten, but I now recall that I tried using my first DAW back in the day with all plug-ins and anything with more than about 2ms of latency started bothering me. Anything near 5ms and I can't handle it. So I went and bought a POD and a new interface and went the direct monitoring route. I had just completely forgot about all that until the last few days as it dawned on me there might be a latency issue. Today I hooked up all devices and outputs simultaneously and A/B'ed things. It's definitely there. I then recorded everything simultaneously and you can see what's going on, it's definitely not in my mind. If I had latency anywhere on my radar maybe somebody could make the argument, but this was absolutely recognized and identified before I even realized it was latency. As I said, for a device as expensive and sophisticated as the KPA to have latency and S/PDIF issues is just mind boggling to me. Why is the company off doing all kinds of deep-dive delay effect enhancements and yet not addressing the meat-n-potatoes issues like S/PDIF and latency? Does that mean it's not correctable/improvable?


    Sadly, the reality is if a hardware improvement, or a KPA 2.0 comes out, the value of the current units are probably going to get shaved in more than half instantly. Which is why I'm now really questioning if it is wise for me to keep the KPA. I can't help but believe given how old the technology is (5 years market, probably 8-10 years R&D) that there isn't a next-gen coming soon. Had the current KPA not had the S/PDIF or Latency issues then I'd not be as concerned, but under the circumstances I'm torn as to whether to keep it or not.


    Sonic

    Oh, suspect I better explain this as well....


    I totally understand how many people won't even be bothered by sub 5ms latency. It depends on a number of factors. If you tend to play blues or legato style solos you'd never even notice anything. Probably not notice even 10ms. But if you play very precise, fast passages, especially quasi-muted runs or fast repetitious patterns,,etc, then latency can be maddening. More so for people who are used to recording and hearing instant reaction in the cans. On stage it's a whole other thing, but then so is everything else flying around in the air. Recording is a whole other animal, the two cannot be compared.


    Anyway, just wanted to clarify this because I already saw enough of the straw-man counter-arguments on the forum and I don't plan on debating theory. I know what I hear and sense, there is no mistaking it.

    Axe FX reportedly has less latency (I can't fell it, neither with Kemper). I'd suggest getting that or going back to POD.


    If you can detect less than 5 ms latency I'd also suggest:


    a) make sure you keep your head right in the middle of 4x12 while playing, if you move away, you will get latency. If you really need to move then 2-3 feet away max - althought head in 4x12 is the best, proven method to reduce latency while playing. If you are taller than 5 feet (I am over 6 just for reference), better get used to crouching playing position.
    b) cables. This is essential. Anything longer than a feet would cause latency. Great synergy with a)
    c) Make sure you never use a tube power amp, definitely 4-10 ms here. Any wireless system or in-ears is a big fat no.
    d) any effects, active circuits in your guitar, etc. will add 3-5 ms as well
    e) Perhaps getting an acoustic guitar would work?


    p.s. There are some situation dependent methods as well. I've played a gig and right in front of the stage there was a tree line, about 100 meters away. Because the sound man was slightly under influence, he routed bass into my on stage, so all I could hear was reflection of the sound from the front bouncing off that tree line. Massive latency. yelling at sound man helped, I'd only recommend that in extreme situations.

    Summary, just to make sure I understand correctly:
    1) You feel the latency when using the analogue outs, but NOT when using spdif?
    2) Your problem with spdif is that the KPA needs to be the master and set at 44.1 kHz - AND you want to run sessions at higher sample rates?


    There are a couple of things to try here.
    - SPDIF: Use a sample rate converter which lets you run your sessions at whatever samples rate you want
    - Analogue: record at higher sample rate, which cuts down the latency of the interface's converters
    - Analogue: use a lower buffer size.


    Just to be sure:
    - how are you monitoring your KPA - is it through the daw, or directly on your interface?
    - which interface do you use?
    - Which sample rates do you run your sessions at?


    And finally: try playing through the monitors. It may be that the headphones are screwing up your perception of immediacy. Some people react better to "playing through the air". This will of course add some latency (due to the speed of sound in air), but it is definitely worth a shot. When you try it, don't listen for the latency of course - just get into the playing, like you would normally do - assess afterwards.

    Given the posts I've seen I suggest you get rid of it.


    Your plainly not happy so best to move on - people have given lots of their time to help already so let's not have another marathon forum post eh?


    Regards,


    Si

    Sorry mate, but my opinion is that you search daily for a problem
    that is related to the Kemper
    You have golden ears....
    you have the ability to feel 1 - 2 ms latency....
    etc ,etc
    the best for you is to return the Kemper
    then you're back to a normal life
    get yourself a latency free POD and be happy....

    I have always resisted making a decision on new gear until a few months have passed. I'd give it more time and then sell if you are not happy, but buying and selling will lose you plenty of money.


    When recording, it could be an add up of latency from the Kemper, interface and computer that start to show. Personally, my band mates are usually not within 5 ms of each other though.

    Karl


    Kemper Rack OS 9.0.5 - Mac OS X 12.6.7

    Like 1

    How are you monitoring the Kemper? Are your monitors connected directly to the amp? Have you got an interface in between? What interface is it? What buffer setting are you using?


    More details, please. It's ridiculous to keep reading the same user saying stuff like "no one has ears like me" and "no one can feel latency like me" and then talking about straw man arguments.


    I'd reiterate my advice to you from that thread and suggest you offload the Kemper as soon as possible. It obviously doesn't impress you. Of course, now that the 30-day return period has expired, you'll probably lose money.

    Seriously, Sonic, I'm still baffled by this.


    With the Constant-latency feature turned off, you'll be looking, AFAIK, at 1.5 -> 2.5ms for most Rigs unless they're effects-laden. I'm notoriously-sensitive to latency myself, and I cannot for the life of me feel any difference between the Kemper and a tube amp. Neither can my tube-head, mega-pickin' brother, and neither can anyone I've spoken to about this.


    This isn't to say that you're not hearing it, but heck man, if 2ms is too much and you'd prefer to knock a ms off it, move a foot closer to your speaker driver, 2 feet if a 2ms reduction is required. This nit-pickin' minutia focus deserves a radical, cheap solution, and moving a foot or two closer is the best I can think of.


    A long shot maybe, but have you tried reducing power sagging on the Kemper and / or / increasing Definition?

    Quote from SonicExporer

    The irony to all this is that the latency is reduced by a helpful amount when running S/PDIF

    This should win the trophy "Unfounded statement of the month" easily.
    Also, if it's true that you have 30 years of tube amp playing on your shoulders (with your stack being at least 9 feet behind you, on average) you should be used to 9ms of latency minimum.
    I'm already curious to see your next unbearable downside of the Kemper. It's getting ridiculous.

    Quote from Andy_T-V

    I'd love to hear one of these passages ...

    Here is some really mad Andy James for you.


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    LOL. Bloody brilliant!


    My sarcasm detector is pinging off the scale. :thumbup: