Why I'm not able to make loud profiles?

    Hello guys, I need some help, please...


    I've been trying to profile my amp for a few days, in a professional studio, and I'm very happy with the overall sound and dynamics, but I would like it a bit louder.


    Here's my chain: I use an old Revox M3500 mic (dynamic) and a ribbon Shure ksm 313. Closed mic'd slightly off axis. The first goes into a Neve 1073 preamp and the second goes into an Api 512c. Both into an Apogee Symphony and ProTools. The Apogee out goes into the Kemper return and the Kemper send into my Dangelo amp input (Italian boutique amp). The KPA balanced out into the DAW for monitoring.


    The amplifier is set on the sweet spot and the mic preamps are set nice and hot, on protools I have the master fader at 0db (clip at 0db). When I profile I use a reference amp that I like, maybe similar to the amp's tone I'm going to profile, and I try to match the Return level for similar volumes, turning it up a bit, with attention to the input light: always green! This way, though, it happens that the KPA gives error, it says the amp is too loud, so I keep the Return level as suggested naturally by the Kemper (usually -25/-30), the sound matches with the reference amp anyway, maybe a bit softer, but not too much... I go ahead profiling, but at the end, after store it and name it, the new profile's volume is lower than the reference amp! I tried also to experiment bringing the return level way higher, but the KPA gives always error!


    I've been experimenting only doing clean and break-up tones...


    Guys, can you help me understanding why I can't make a nice and "loud" profile, comparable to our favs TAF, MBritt, etc? What's your experience with profiling?


    I'm very happy with the sounds I'm making and I know can do much better practicing and trying loads of new profiles, but for the volume I really don't understand why I can't increase it! It's not the most important thing, I know, but it bothers me, a lot!


    Thank you very much!


    BTW here's one of the profile I made, which I love!!


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    Edited once, last by sonic79 ().

    I think I'm doing it in the proper way, but I don't understand why I can't do an extreme profile... even clipping... just for experimenting different levels and dynamics... the machine doesn't want me to!! ;( Maybe it's my Kemper?? If you check TAF profilrs are freaking loud even turning eq, comp and fx off!! Britt's are less louder, ToneHAWK a bit less as well... but mine are even softer!! I would like to have a rule, some guide lines, for understanding volume control! Now it's like I'm guessing!! :S Thank you guys!!

    The "loudness" of a profile is a combination of compression and frequency response (and how humans perceive loudness).


    Many of the commercial profiles utilize a studio EQ in the x slot to help sweeten the tone, boosting that treble slightly (be careful, treble is addictive), they also may use a compressor either within the amp block or as a stomp before, and finally may even use a treble booster stomp in front.


    Go to your favorite commercial profiles and coy the stomps over first to see what's going on. And how that affects things. Next check out using different cabs, you may prefer to use a cab from a commercial profile with your own amp.


    Finally they may just have set the output or amp volume to be louder! You want to balance the overall loudness between profiles and rather than turning things up on the Kemper turn them up on your poweramp. That's something that a lot of people don't get with amp sims, they just play em quieter and then wonder why they're not getting the same resonance and feedback. So, erm, protect your ears obviously, but turn it up!

    Andy from The Amp Factory often has a Studio EQ Stomp in the X slot solely for boosting the volume after profiling. Me, I'd just turn up the Volume parameter in the Amp block. Done!

    Thank you guys! But actually I profile using as a reference amp a TAF with NO eq, compression and stuff... After I profile I know I can use some extra kick here and there, bit the problem is about "how to profile louder". I use NEVE and API pres and the volume are as hot as I need for a clean tone, the problem is the return level... if I turn it up, even if the light is still green the KPA gives ERROR: THE AMP IS TOO LOUD!! X( The DAW master fader is set at 0db (clip) if I turn it up the machine again: ERROR, THE AMP IS TOO LOUD!! ;( I need to understand the rules, how that works... so I can have a reference point when I'll profile again!!


    Per says: The "loudness" of a profile is a combination of compression and frequency response (and how humans perceive loudness).


    Totally agree with that!! But I don't think is all about using an extra comp and eq after the mic pres... MBritt desn't use any of these!


    Anyway, thank you so much!!!!

    I don't understand.
    You can always turn up the volume of a Rig with the VOLUME control.
    Or turn up MASTER VOLUME or whatever you are using to monitor your sound.


    Or simply lower the signal sent to the Profiler and compensate with MASTER VOLUME or your monitoring volume.

    Thanks for your comment and for your help. As I was saying, I would like to understand how it works, why other profiles are louder even with the volume knob set to 0, with no eq and no compression... I know I can turn it up after I profile it, but than I need to use a boost eq of 3 db to match...


    Basically after I profile, It's like the Kemper brings my level way lower that the profiled leve and the reference amp level... I don't know, I need a profiler tutor here in Rome... ||


    As I was saying before, I know it's not the main issues, but I would like to understand... for example The MORGAN AC20 free profile is way louder without anything, It clips like crazy!! I don't want that, but I want to understand the process of the dynamic rage...how to make it softer (easy) and how to make it louder... I wish it was just turning the volume up! :)


    Does the clean and dist sense make difference in profiling process?

    Again :

    Quote from sambrox

    I'd just turn up the Volume parameter in the Amp block. Done!


    As long as the profile isn't clipping the output when you turn up the Volume parameter in the Amplifier section of the Stack, what does it matter if it isn't at the same level as other profiles before tweaking the Volume? If it sounds the same, what's your trouble?

    Sambrox thank you very much!! I didn't know I could do that!!! 8o Sorry for my ignorance!! But I've just noticed that all the profilers have the volume parameter in stack block up a notch... the AC20 is like +8db!! That makes sense!!! I really appreciate your help!!!!!! I didn't understand in your first comment! I would make a few profiles and share them with the community!! thanks a lot!!

    The Profiler sets the volume of the profile automatically, to (roughly) match the unity volume of the other profiles. The volume of the reference amp has no impact on this. You can see that the return leve is adjusted automatically.


    It is actually a bad habit of some third party profile vendors, to vastly modify e.g. the amp volume of clean sounds, to match its volume with distorted rigs, just because the guitar that was used in this moment has a soft output. The parameter Clean Sens was made to justify those differences.


    I want to motivate all participants to keep an eye on this fact!


    However, the automatic leveling cannot solve all volume differences. An adjustment of the Amp Volume of +- 2 or 3 dB is suitable. If more is needed than something went wrong.

    100% clear!! Thanks a lot!!
    Actually I think it's very important to work on clean and dist sense, I use the clean sense around - 3db or something like that, I notice the clean is more dynamic and some profiles react better to the pick attack. The distortion sense I use it a bit more than 0.


    After I discovered the Amp volume I turned it up around +2/3 db and it works great!
    Thanks again for your message!

    I must be getting really old… :sleeping: I don't understand this, I love my new powered Kemper, but when I profile any of my amplifiers, Bogner's, Wizard, Marshalls... every single time the volume is perfectly matched while I am A/B ing reference amp and Kemper profile , While refining, etc. etc. ... UNTIL I save the profile and make a rig…
    THEN the volume is always cut way down, wayyy quieter…
    Am I doing something wrong?

    Hi Keith, unfortunately we can't control the volume during the profiling process the way we'd like to... the KPA will decide the actual signal, as you can see, in fact, the return level changes all the time. What I understood is that you need to make a great work before profiling, with mics, preamps and all levels... without making the kpa clipping. Once you do that, you need to let the kpa do its job. Usually the volume of the profile will be lower... so you go in the amp section, hold the amp button and you will find all the parameters of the profiling process, plus compression, volume and other things... So you can tweek the overall level, compering your profile with you favourites. As ckemper told me: if you need to turn that volume more than 2/3db maybe something went wrong... maybe in the process... Hope this will help!

    Thanks man!


    I needed some good advise here for making great profiles and I'm glad you like my work (and my playing)... I think now I'm doing pretty good, so I will start selling my packs from September/October. Very low price, but very high quality! :thumbup: