What's the secret setting?

    Quote from ampoholic

    Fact! For me, it's usually one of a few things. Sometimes it's getting the right amp profile. What sounds killer at home sometimes does not blend or contrast with the other guitar. So I find an amp that fits better and then tweak from there. Or maybe a little bit cleaner rig (lower gain.) Sometimes cleaner is reducing the amount of effects I'm using. By amount I mean MIX level or maybe an effect just isn't "cutting" it (pun intended) and I either terminate it or change to something similar.

    Obviously this is the same as a valve amp, but cleaning up also cuts through better, ask Angus Young!

    Dr Nightlight's seven tips to a better mix:


    1) Back off on the gain. Seriously, this is really crucial. Too much gain makes the mix muddy and occupies all the available space in the spectrum as well, making your mix tiny.


    2) Position all instruments using the pan controls in a way that they are not fighting for the same position in the stereo field.


    3) Don't try to mix by soloing instruments. The mix is a bigger picture than the individual instruments, which brings me to...


    4) EQ aggressively, use compression to tame stuff that pokes out and use reverb to glue the mix together. It doesn't matter if the guitars don't sound huge by themselves, they should sound huge IN THE MIX.


    5) Use automation. Is there a bit where the bass should stand out? Use automation to lower the other instruments. Want the drums to have a solo? Lower the other instruments and raise the drums.


    6) Are you double tracking? Quad tracking? Pay attention to your performance. Nothing worse than a quad tracked recording where all the guitars sound like they're phasing because the performance wasn't tight.


    7) Use real drums. Don't rely on programming, that'll just get you clinical and sterile sounding mixes. By eliminating the push and pull in a performance, you are basically creating music for robots.

    THIS!!! If you have an arrangement that is over produced and packed full of shit, nothing will gut through. The empty space is just as important as the space you fill!

    I agree with everything except your drum idea. I am a drummer, have been for over 30 years. Right now I HAVE to use fake drums, does not sound robotic on our music. Then again they are not locked to a grid, I play full kit all at one time with both hands. Also, before aggressively EQ'ing anything, see what EQ CUTS you can make on other tracks to get it out of the way, so you do not have to boost aggressively on the other

    Quote from Jarrydee

    I agree with everything except your drum idea. I am a drummer, have been for over 30 years. Right now I HAVE to use fake drums, does not sound robotic on our music. Then again they are not locked to a grid, I play full kit all at one time with both hands. Also, before aggressively EQ'ing anything, see what EQ CUTS you can make on other tracks to get it out of the way, so you do not have to boost aggressively on the other


    Yes, compulsion makes us do strange things :)


    Believe me, scarcely any serious recording uses programmed drums. If you say they are not locked to a grid, I'm assuming you're doing some humanising, which is fine.


    But give me a real drummer any day of the week, month or year :thumbup:

    Quote from nightlight

    Yes, compulsion makes us do strange things :)


    Believe me, scarcely any serious recording uses programmed drums. If you say they are not locked to a grid, I'm assuming you're doing some humanising, which is fine.


    But give me a real drummer any day of the week, month or year :thumbup:

    He's probably doing the same thing that many do, which is finger drum the patterns in real time with a MIDI controller.

    Quote from Michael_dk

    Not many, no... But there are definitely some :)


    In a sea of "serious" recordings, it's a really small fraction. I'm referring to the big budget productions, which most of us hope to copy with our work.


    Trust me, just put your music to an actual drum being played and you'll be surprised at how it leaps out of your monitors in your face versus just putting it over a programmed piece, locked to a grid or not.

    Quote from nightlight

    In a sea of "serious" recordings, it's a really small fraction. I'm referring to the big budget productions, which most of us hope to copy with our work.


    Trust me, just put your music to an actual drum being played and you'll be surprised at how it leaps out of your monitors in your face versus just putting it over a programmed piece, locked to a grid or not.

    It depends on who's doing the programming and who's playing the drums. Many records used programmed drums, I remember "Momentary lapse of reason" by pink Floyd had all programmed drums, maybe due to the lapse of reason thing. :D

    Quote from Dean_R

    It depends on who's doing the programming and who's playing the drums. Many records used programmed drums, I remember "Momentary lapse of reason" by pink Floyd had all programmed drums, maybe due to the lapse of reason thing. :D

    Wow… I didn’t know that Dean, thanks!
    Now I have to go and listen to it, :thumbup:

    I'm going to be contrarian there, with the caveat of horses for courses.


    Personally, for me, I really think drums should be live if you have the option (and money) to do it. You can get away with programmed drums and they can sound decent enough in a clinical nashville mass produced pop kinda way, or you can use purposefully characterful programmed drums such as the old classic 808's and that can sound great too albeit in an 80's way (back in the era when Phil Collins ruined drums forever to make them sound synth even when they weren't). But nothing I have ever heard compares to a good drummer in a good room on a good kit with a good engineer and producer. You practically don't need the rest of the band, it's what gets your feet moving.


    It's a combination of a whole slew of things, the timing, interaction between instruments in the kit, the room sound, the variety of sounds from just one instrument in the kit, the messiness and distortinos even. People underestimate just how much feeling and nuance can be put into that instrument because they think it's just hitting things right? So wrong.


    All my favorite tracks are either live drums or based on sample loops of live drummers having at it. If I at all had the option I would totally use live drums every time, unfortunately I only have to settle for the electronic kind. I guess I'm just as much a drum snob as guitar amp snob :S

    Quote from stfuzz

    At least commercial productions use tools to tighten live played drums. Tools like the Beat Detective in Pro Tools, etc....


    Yes, quantisation is used in the studio, but it's more subtle than just saying, "let's lock everything to sixteenth beats". Sure, you can move parts around on the grid and it might be more life-like, but it's the idiosyncrasies of a live musician that make music so enjoyable sometimes.


    Like think about guitar in the same way. I heard an interesting djent album some time ago where the guy programmed the guitars, and I was pretty surprised. It sounded really good. But then, I flipped on another record with real guitars and it was the "real deal", there's just some things that software cannot replicate in a performance. Heck, even string noise on some of the albums I listen to is enjoyable, and cannot be replicated with software.


    Quote from Dean_R

    It depends on who's doing the programming and who's playing the drums. Many records used programmed drums, I remember "Momentary lapse of reason" by pink Floyd had all programmed drums, maybe due to the lapse of reason thing. :D


    Some of the tracks had real drummers, probably because programming wouldn't have worked. In fact, the only reason they used programmed drums was because Nick Mason was out of practice and couldn't play the parts.

    Whether drums are programmed or not will affect the feel, vibe and groove of a song/performance. Using a "real" drum performance is vital but has no impact whether a guitar will sit in a mix or not. The main aspect is the production and isolation of the drum sound. Why does a good album production translate perfectly into a loud live situation without any alteration of the mix and frequency balance regarding fletcher/munson while your band mix does not? It makes no sense. Simply break down all possible causes and identify everything in a live situation that is different from a studio production and try to eliminate as many possible problems as you can.


    The major problems in a live situation are:


    - too high stage volume bleed makes it impossible to create a decent FOH mix
    - crosstalk between instruments and microphones (especially vocal mics) make a extensive use of EQ and compressors and thus a good mix nearly impossible
    - traditional monitoring creates additional volume, bleeding and feedback while the lack of a satisfying monitor mix for the individual musician often results in a poorer performance.
    - FOH with insufficient power, wrong EQ settings and lacking possibilities of sound processing of the individual signals
    - live drums in most cases cannot be processed the same way like in a studio situation


    Using KPAs and individual IEM mixes with a digital mixer onstage already solves many problems. However the drums always remain the biggest challenge. Using a transparent drum shield helps a lot but looks strange and isolates the drummer from the the rest of the world. In my band we switched to edrums 2 years ago and i say this was the best decision ever. Sadly there is no stock edrum that will play, sound and look like the way i wanted but with a lot testing and tweaking i have to say this finally is my dream setup. Except from the vocal performance there is nearly zero stage noise. Though playing loud metal stuff we are able to to perform in a living room and still get a decent FOH mix at 100db. The guitar tone is exactly the same live as it is on the recordings and it just works perfectly.

    Quote from ronmail65

    I'm generalizing here.... but, tube amps seem to have a certain way of cutting through the mix that solid state amps seem to universally lack. I know the Kemper is capable - I've heard it, but I haven't identified it. Sure I can get louder, but I'm still missing that 'cut' and 'gut punch' that I'm used to hearing from tube amps.


    Is there a secret EQ setting or other type of effect that seems to do this trick for the Kemper?

    I always work with “direct mix” to blend in a bit of clean signal. It helps give definition to the notes
    providing more punch..
    “Pick attack” will increase “cut” in the mix as well.

    Are we seriously talking about drums? I've spent years telling our drummer we could replace him with a drum machine if he complains too much, you are all ruining my threat :)


    You'll be calling them musicians next!


    Note: That is obviously a joke to any drummers out there ( I do drum a bit myself) before anyone gets upset.. :)


    In all seriousness I don;t think anyone is saying programmed drums are better than live, just that the liones are getting miore blurred with post recording clean ups, quantizing, use of electronic kits over live kits etc.


    All have improved significantly.


    Sure, using an electronic kit is fair game in my opinion. I think Periphery did that on one of their albums. Meshuggah did an album with programmed drums too, I think. But I think in most of the cases, it is inability or budget or time constraints that would force most musicians to use a machine on a recording.


    These days, you can even hire guys to do drum recordings for your project.


    Heck, we could do a simple test. Someone put together a simple song with a simple programmed drum beat. Then I'll try to cop that beat on my e-kit. Should be pretty easy to demonstrate what I'm talking about.