I Intend to start a study about commercial profiles

Quote from ba_hill

I don't think it's uncommon or unrealistic to note what gear you use in recording. I often see something like "recorded through a Focusrite 18i20 interface direct to ProTools with no additional processing" in the text associated with demos.

Brian

I say what the signal chain is for the profiling I don't tend to bother with the actual demos.

I will also bear this in mind next time to mention the actual equipment used in recording the demos if that's what people want. Before I started this I asked if people wanted videos and 99% of people said no, they wanted high quality audio. I personally want this too when choosing profiles so went along with this. It's the sound that matters first and foremost.

of course you are relying on the profiler to be 100% truthful here though, it would be easy to massage your demos and not say so, perhaps that's what the OP has experienced and the reason for the thread.

It's a good discussion though.

M

Quote from norburybrook

Sometimes I do demos for profilers, this thread inspired me to add a disclaimer to my signature. It's something I post often (but not always) when I post a clip, so it saves me typing, and makes for total transparency and no uncertainty about how the demo was done for the buyer.

The flip side is, even is I didn't use any post-processing on the guitars at all (and like you, I add a very small amount), the guitar is such a huge part of the equation. For my low stuff I play a 27.7" scale semi-hollow (not so important) with bare knuckle P90s and a .73 tuned to Bb on the low end. It's a much different sound than when I set my CU22 up for the same tuning. They both sound great, just very very different.

So should I add that too?

Quote from norburybrook

@Monkeyman, I hear what your saying and I'll personally bear that in mind for my next demos. If I record to tape in my studio then should I say in the notes these demos were recorded to tape? 2 db of master compression is a lot less than will happen if you upload to you tube, or convert to mp3. Also if you're recording the analogue out's from the Kemper the quality of the AD conversion will have an effect, should that be specified too? my Apogee convertors sound different from my Yamaha/steinberg ones, that will affect what your hearing in the demos if your listening on a good system. where do we stop with this?

No need to be facetious, mate.

The YouTube and Soundcloud uploads undergo the same degradation as everyone else's offerings, so it's a level playing field.

The differences between the KPA's analogue and S/PDIF outs, your Apogee A/D and other vendors' conversion systems and so on are relatively-minuscule and IMHO esoteric in the context of comparing YouTube or Soundcloud demos of naked guitar tracks online.

Tape emulation and deliberate dynamic-range compression OTOH do not require bat ears or state-of-the-art monitoring systems to detect.

I can't help but feel you were baiting me and I'm in two minds as to whether to post this or not. As a professional, I'd have thought this stuff would be obvious to you.

Let's "keep it real" by observing Brian's experience quoted below. Even if you don't state the obvious, most potential customers will be assuming a no-nonesense recording M.O. in the interests of fairness / a level playing field.

Quote from ba_hill

I don't think it's uncommon or unrealistic to note what gear you use in recording. I often see something like "recorded through a Focusrite 18i20 interface direct to ProTools with no additional processing" in the text associated with demos.

Brian

Quote from Monkey_Man

No need to be facetious, mate.

The YouTube and Soundcloud uploads undergo the same degradation as everyone else's offerings, so it's a level playing field.

The differences between the KPA's analogue and S/PDIF outs, your Apogee A/D and other vendors' conversion systems and so on are relatively-minuscule and IMHO esoteric in the context of comparing YouTube or Soundcloud demos of naked guitar tracks online.

Tape emulation and deliberate dynamic-range compression OTOH do not require bat ears or state-of-the-art monitoring systems to detect.

I can't help but feel you were baiting me and I'm in two minds as to whether to post this or not. As a professional, I'd have thought this stuff would be obvious to you.

Let's "keep it real" by observing Brian's experience quoted below. Even if you don't state the obvious, most potential customers will be assuming a no-nonesense recording M.O. in the interests of fairness / a level playing field.

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honestly I wasn't trying to be facetious, I was saying that the subtleties of what I used on one particular 'demo' were very subtle and I could guarantee I can upload the same files with out it and no one would be able to tell the difference. If you read my replies I was saying I take on board what you say and will bear that in mind next time.

I think you've taken this the wrong way, and that's a problem with internet communication I believe. My whole premise of profiling is keeping it real I was only trying to be open and transparent about how and why I do what I do. I still stand by the fact that 99% of people auditioning profiles on their laptops/phones prosumer monitors would not be able to hear a tape sim used lightly or 2db of master bus compression hence me going down the line to the AD convertors.

Again, I'm saying I'm with you on this whole processing to enhance profiles thing so I don't know why you would think I was being facetious. It's why I was interested in this thread. I want to make the best profiles around and keep up a high standard in the whole 'service' hence I've just spent a lot of money on a new web site to incorporate a proper 'shop' with instant downloads.

Thinking about this: even if people put a disclaimer saying post processing was used, would that mean that most people then wouldn't buy the profiles? an analogy: I walking down the market and I want to buy some golden delicious apples, there are two stalls with the same apples, one vendor has polished up his apples and put the best looking ones on display, the other has the raw, dirty apples, who are most people going to buy from? if you have a choice of two JCM800 profiles, even if there's a disclaimer saying post processing was used in the demo, are people 1: going to buy the one that sounds best in the demo or NOT buy that one because it mentions processing and buy the one they don't think sounds as good because it hasn't? Personally I feel most people will go for the one that has the best sounding demo regardless. It reminds me of the loudness wars with music, louder always sounds 'better' to people so music got mastered louder and louder so their record sounded better than the competition, no one was brave enough to say enough as they didn't want THEIR record to be the one that was quieter just throwing some stuff into the mix here over coffee.

I'm still learning about all this stuff and there's a lot to learn after you've done the hard work of profiling, so threads like this and communicating on the forums are an integral part of learning what people expect, want , are happy with, not happy with, again I said I would take on board what you said, I can't do anymore that that

M

Dude, you either get it or you don't; I'm done with this rabbit hole.

Thank you for your time.

Quote from norburybrook

Thinking about this: even if people put a disclaimer saying post processing was used, would that mean that most people then wouldn't buy the profiles?

I wasn't going to jump in here Marcus, but have little choice now.

The question you are asking could not matter less. How can you not know this???

I'm not going to address your analogy, you have tortured it enough.

I mean: "Personally I feel most people will go for the one that has the best sounding demo regardless."

I know many people that will refuse to consider demos that are processed. Sooo...what now?

Some light reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_holes

I bet a lot of commercial sellers would chime in here, but I think it‘s not allowed.

So I wonder about comments from profile sellers here.

Quote from Locrain

I know many people that will refuse to consider demos that are processed. Sooo...what now?

You can count me amongst those, mate.

I wouldn't dream of trying to compare a doctored demo with a bare-bones one from someone else. Apart from that, I'd consider the vendor less-than-trustworthy and make a point of avoiding his Profiles, period.

Quote from Eltzejupp

I bet a lot of commercial sellers would chime in here, but I think it‘s not allowed.

So I wonder about comments from profile sellers here.

You and me both, Brother Frank. It started way back near the beginning of the thread and I'm amazed it wasn't nipped in the bud straight-away.

Quote from Eltzejupp

I bet a lot of commercial sellers would chime in here, but I think it‘s not allowed.

So I wonder about comments from profile sellers here.

As I mentioned earlier (I think), I really really wish this had been posted in another section so that those off us who likely know most about the topic could participate. This is a very very weird rule IMO. At least it could be implemented more sensibly.

Ok, I'm here because I'm interested in the thread and would hope commercial sellers would come here to openly discuss their methodology, surely that's what I would want as a customer. You'll have to ask the OP if that's what he was hoping. If not I'm happy to bow out. I thought I could bring something to the table here.

I was just opening into a discussion and following things down the paths that opened up.

M

Quote from Monkey_Man

You and me both, Brother Frank. It started way back near the beginning of the thread and I'm amazed it wasn't nipped in the bud straight-away.

Well, I can tell it's close to bedtime when I didn't even realize that until you/Frank said so...what the hell is that? Are there rules or not???

That's pretty disturbing when I know multiple really great profilers that have been banned/warned for the exact activity that is in this thread. Huh. That's too bad.

Quote from norburybrook

Ok, I'm here because I'm interested in the thread and would hope commercial sellers would come here to openly discuss their methodology, surely that's what I would want as a customer. You'll have to ask the OP if that's what he was hoping. If not I'm happy to bow out. I thought I could bring something to the table here.

I was just opening into a discussion and following things down the paths that opened up.

M

Yeah, this part is not your bad man, just a stupid rule that is enforced...whenever it is. You may want to back off posting though, just in case,..maybe the mods are asleep/

Double-tap.

Quote from Locrain

As I mentioned earlier (I think), I really really wish this had been posted in another section so that those off us who likely know most about the topic could participate. This is a very very weird rule IMO. At least it could be implemented more sensibly.

Ah Ok my bad then, I wasn't aware of this. It seems strange to have a discussion about commercial profiles that commercial profilers aren't allowed to participate in.

mod's feel free to delete my threads, I wasn't aware of the rules on this. usually a mod will send you ands email if you've over stepped the mark.

M

Quote from norburybrook

Ah Ok my bad then, I wasn't aware of this. It seems strange to have a discussion about commercial profiles that commercial profilers aren't allowed to participate in.

mod's feel free to delete my threads, I wasn't aware of the rules on this. usually a mod will send you ands email if you've over stepped the mark.

M

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That'd be nice, huh? Seems like pretty tight tolerances here, depending who's on shift. But you're right, a warning PM is usually the first step.

Edit: Wow, this is a horrible rule. I have never ever been on an amp forum where amp manufactures were allowed to sell their products, but then not give input/advice/answer questions on the section of the forum where the products are discussed.

@G String , I read the sticky, is there a more specifically defined reason for this decision?

Quote from Locrain

Well, I can tell it's close to bedtime when I didn't even realize that until you/Frank said so...what the hell is that? Are there rules or not???

That's pretty disturbing when I know multiple really great profilers that have been banned/warned for the exact activity that is in this thread. Huh. That's too bad.

Yeah, this part is not your bad man, just a stupid rule that is enforced...whenever it is. You may want to back off posting though, just in case,..maybe the mods are asleep/

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sure, I think the rule is about actually posting links if I 've read it correctly. Anyway it's a minefield that's for sure. I got a warning for using too many characters in a thread title!....

M

You've read it completely-incorrectly.

Here are the rules for this subforum:

This section is for all our users to discuss commercial third party rigs. Authors of those offerings are not allowed to open threads or post into existing threads. Any other form of commercial offering, raffle etc must also not take place here. If you're an author of a commercial pack discussed in here and you feel the need to comment you need to do this via PM to the poster in question.

Note: we've changed this policy in 4/18. In order to avoid confusion authors of commercial offerings must not post here at all.

In order to achieve a better overview, please name the thread you're opening after the product you want to discuss.

Quote from Monkey_Man

You've read it completely-incorrectly.

Here are the rules for this subforum:

This section is for all our users to discuss commercial third party rigs. Authors of those offerings are not allowed to open threads or post into existing threads. Any other form of commercial offering, raffle etc must also not take place here. If you're an author of a commercial pack discussed in here and you feel the need to comment you need to do this via PM to the poster in question.

Note: we've changed this policy in 4/18. In order to avoid confusion authors of commercial offerings must not post here at all.

In order to achieve a better overview, please name the thread you're opening after the product you want to discuss.

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Ah OK, thanks for that.

So does that mean as soon as you become a commercial seller one cannot participate in any threads on the commercial forum?

Obviously one can in one's own thread but not someone else's

one CAN participate in a thread if it's NOT in the commercial forum, but one CANNOT advertise one's product in anyway?

Yes?

M

Quote from norburybrook

sure, I think the rule is about actually posting links if I 've read it correctly. Anyway it's a minefield that's for sure. I got a warning for using too many characters in a thread title!....

M

Yeah, it's a little more B&W than that, as Nicky says. As dumb a rule as I think it is, it's at the top of the page: change of posting policy in "Third party Rigs discussion" (4/2018)

Wow! That’s a prety mental rule.

I admit i was getting really p1553d off with all the profilers promoting their packs in every thread but to not allow them to post at all is crazy. Some of these guys have phenomenal knowledge about tones in general and profiling them in particular. I have always found the input from guys like Michael Britt and Bert Meulendijk to be really helpful and balanced.

Quote from norburybrook

So does that mean as soon as you become a commercial seller you cannot participate in any threads on the commercial forum?

Obviously you can in your own thread but not someone else's

I CAN participate in a thread if it's NOT in the commercial forum, but I CANNOT advertise my product in anyway?

No, you cannot participate in any thread in the discussion subforum, let alone create one.

Remember - there are two subforums in the commercial section.

EDIT:

Geez you guys post fast.